Podcast #85 Help Texts: Expert Support in Hard Times – Emma Payne, Founder and Barbara Karnes, RN and Educator

So many people are struggling with grief, burnout, caregiving, and more. The idea behind Help Texts is to get expert support directly into people’s hands – literally, in their hands, by appearing on their phone via text a few times a week. How does Help Texts work? What does it cost? Why would I want this for myself or a friend or family member? And – does it really help?? As founder Emma Payne says, “It’s incredible that just a few messages a week that speak to you, are, for many people, enough.” I kinda love the idea of Barbara Karnes and other true wisdom-carriers appearing in my text stream!

Find out more at: ⁠https://helptexts.com/⁠

Find out more at: ⁠https://bkbooks.com/⁠

Transcription:

Diane Hullet: Hi, I am Diane Hullett and welcome to the Best Life Best Death podcast. Today I’ve got a really fun episode with two women, and I don’t typically do two guests at a time, but this just seemed like such a natural pairing. So hi to Emma Payne and hi to 

Emma Payne: Barbara Kans. 

Barbara Karnes: Hi to you. So you both thank you for having me.

I think we’re gonna have a really good time today. Good discussion. 

Emma Payne: Thanks Diane. Great to be here. 

Diane Hullet: So Emma Payne is one of the founders of Help Texts. Tell us like what is Help text and how did you get involved? 

Emma Payne: Sure. Well, like most people that work in bereavement, there’s a, a sad origin story. But my friend died in 2015 and before he died, asked me to speak at his funeral, which of course I agreed to do.

But it was a daunting proposition because he was the best friend and also second cousin of my husband who had died by suicide a decade prior. So essentially what I had agreed to do was fly across the country and stand in front. A few hundred people, many of whom, most of whom I hadn’t heard from when my husband died.

So I kind of spent the funeral weekend hearing a version of. The same thing hundreds of times, which was, I didn’t know what to say. I was in Embarra. I, you know, I, I was scared. This is the first time I knew someone who had died. I’m sorry. I didn’t reach out then too much time passed and I felt awkward and so on.

So on my flight home, and at this point, I’d spent about 20 years building web and mobile applications for other things like suicide prevention youth voter registration. So on my flight home, I just thought, this is crazy. There’s got to be plenty of wisdom out there about how to support someone who is grieving.

And so I spent 10 years not hearing from people, and a hundred people spent that same 10 years feeling genuinely bad about it. So I used my plane ride home to map out what. Became help text for, we were first called Grief Coach because we used to just send text messages to people who are grieving and also the friends and family who want to help and don’t know how.

Now we’ve expanded a little bit. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, so say, so say more like, El Help Text is what if I sign up for it? 

Emma Payne: We are delivering ongoing expert grief and mental health care via text message, so we’re taking the wisdom of so many amazing people like Barbara. And crafting those into texts that just go straight to your phone, personalized based on cause of death, relationship, age, things like that.

And you get those messages for a full year tailored just for you. So it’s it’s bite sized expert support to your phone. 

Diane Hullet: I think it’s so, I think it’s so timely, right? Because I know I primarily communicate by text these days and anyone who really knows they wanna get ahold of me, that’s how they get ahold of me because phone messages kind of go by the wayside.

Emails pile up and get buried. So I think texting really is the current. Very current mode of communication. And when I first heard about this, I thought, well, that seems kind of oddly impersonal, right? To think about getting a text message from some service. But I think what’s so unique about Help Text is how you’ve brought in these expert voices and then you personalize them.

And the, the, let, let’s, let’s unpack that a little. So Barbara, of course, Barbara Karin’s, you know, fantastic end of life educator. How did you come to be? 

Barbara Karnes: Well, started off with my daughter-in-law, Julia, read about it, heard about it, and came to me and said, oh my goodness. Listen to this. This woman named Emma is putting this together and I think we wanna be involved.

And it, it’s such a great communicator. As you pointed out in our society today, we don’t seem to have the time, and so this little text message just kind of touches in and says, I’m not alone. You are not alone. Think about this for today. It’s just kind of a touchstone and particularly when we’re grieving or as caregivers, you know, when we are dealing with a life challenge, just that little, you’re not alone.

Think about this. And then we go on with our busy. 

Diane Hullet: I love it. And, and Emma, talk a little about the categories of help text, because I think that’s one of the neat things about it, that there are these kind of specific angles and you’re unfolding more and more as time goes by. What categories are available now?

Yeah. 

Emma Payne: Excuse me. Shivers hearing Barbara describe my product back to me that way. It’s so amazing. Thank you Barbara. Cuz you’re right about the touchstones and. Those normalizing supportive messages. It’s incredible actually that just a few messages a week that speak to you are for many people enough as they have these challenges.

So amazing. So we started off with Help Text for Grief, which is the product we we’re describing where we send messages after someone dies. A lot of the organizations we work with are hospices where Barbara. Has just made the most enormous impact. And so hospices we’re buying packages of subscriptions and using those to provide bereavement care to their brief family members.

But last year in the, we and I started the company before the pandemic with obviously no idea what was ahead of the hedge for us all. So we started off just doing grief, but then our clients were hospices and they themselves were having a major challenge. Burnout and fatigue and retention for their own teams who were exhausted.

So we realized we could actually not just deliver help techs for grief, we could also deliver help techs for healthcare workers. So we launched a new product which sends messages around burnout, fatigue, resilience moral distress to RMTs nurses, hospice nurses, I C U physicians. So that’s been really amazing to see how we can use the same text system.

To support a whole other group of a whole other group of people. And then our newest product is the one where Barbara’s making a particular a particularly beautiful contribution is with help tech for caregivers. So now we are able to support people after a terminal diagnosis and really anticipatory.

Patient care, caregiver distress and anxiety, and walk people through the end of life with a whole series of messages for when someone’s actively dying. And we’re just saying the things that people don’t say enough, right? Most people don’t have Barbara Carns in their pocket. That’s the problem. The wisdom exists, but.

Most people, and it was the same with me when my friend was dying, I had no idea what to expect. It was all terrifying. And you know, now I read the messages that Barbara’s written. I’m like, oh, I wish I, someone told me that and that and that and that, because I didn’t know it. So that’s the, the idea is to take those gems, those touchstones, those normalizing statements and put them straight into people’s hands during that caregiving journey as well.

Diane Hullet: And literally in people’s pockets. I mean, our phones literally, yeah. I love the category of caregivers. I think it’s so intense and I, I heard a great quote recently, and of course I’m not gonna remember the woman’s name, but it was on a, an interview with Ewell and the woman’s first name is Alicia, and she said, caregivers make all other work possible.

And I thought, whoa, is that ever a statement, right? That if we didn’t have the number of people we have, Shifting around their jobs, juggling things, making it work so they could care for their loved one. You know, all other work would come to a screeching halt because everyone would need to be home all the time.

So I love that you came up with this category of supporting caregivers. 

Emma Payne: It’s almost not even that we came up with it. We just got asked for it again and again and again, and it was so painful. We would have people coming to our website and saying, oh, hi, can you help me? My mom’s dying of cancer. And we had to say, no, I’m sorry.

We can’t help you. She’s died. So we’ve been waiting to launch this product. We’ve been waiting to launch this product basically since the beginning. So, 

Barbara Karnes: yeah, you know, I want, I wanna say, because as we’re talking about caregivers, caregivers are the unsung hero in healthcare, whether it’s a professional caregiver or it’s a wife taking care of her husband or.

A, a husband taking care of a wife or mom or whatever. Mm-hmm. They do all the work, and yet we put all of our attention on the patient. And so to have that touchstone for a caregiver, I also wanna say that most of us don’t know that taking care of someone at end of life is d. Than taking care of someone who’s going to get better.

And these texts are educational in their couple of sentences and pointing out the normalization of what dad’s doing. You know, nothing bad is happening because he’s breathing like this. This is how people die. And I think that education, Hum in a text is brilliant. It’s just so 

Diane Hullet: good. Hallelujah. I get that, Barbara.

That almost takes it to a different level. Like it isn’t for the caregiver piece, it isn’t even just. Hey, thinking of you and hey, love on yourself. And remember self-care. It’s also education about what’s happening and what’s unfolding, which is so lacking and people get so concerned and caught up and worried and fearful.

Taking people to the doctor when that isn’t necessarily what needs to happen right then. So I love that it is really support and 

Emma Payne: educat. Yeah, the educational component is, thanks Barbara, for pointing it out because you’re right. It’s, yes, we have messages that are just caring for people, but we’re talking about a whole year of support, so there’s a lot of deep education that’s going on about nourishing the body in different ways than you do when a person is going to recover.

Water and nutrition and patient care and all of the things that really allow the caregiver to feel supported themselves so that they can deliver that care. I 

Diane Hullet: wanna read a couple of testimonials because I think hearing what people say about this is really powerful. So from your website, here’s a testimonial.

I was gifted help text after my father died, and I’ve gifted it to many others since, especially to men. There’s a stigma around male grief and with help texts, you can ponder the messages on your own time without the pressure of grieving in front of others. It feels like a private personal consult for your.

I love that a man wrote that and another person said, I found help texts on Instagram after my sister died. I’ve renewed my subscription twice since then, and I find the personalized texts incredibly helpful. I really like that text messages come directly to me and give me a reason to pause and think about my sister and how I’m.

I also included her best friend in my subscription and she finds the subscription just as helpful as I do and always ask to be included each time I renew. Emma, can you talk a little about this piece of including others? Cuz I think that’s a really interesting component of help text as well. 

Emma Payne: She made me cry.

It’s, it’s incredible that something. Literally invented on an airplane ride, make, gives people that kind of response. It’s just incredible to hear that feedback. The experience that I described at my friend’s funeral where everyone was like, I didn’t know what to say and I couldn’t help you and so on, is why our subscriptions are built the way they are.

So every subscription has support for that griever or that caregiver directly full of all kinds of deep evidence-based education and practical tips. But you are always invited to add in your husband best friend, colleague, neighbor, and they will also get texts all year long with suggestions for how to help.

And that part where we just heard in that testimonial about adding in the friend who’s then also getting suggestions for how do you support someone after their husband has died by suicide. We’re terrified. We don’t know what to do. So we’re gonna send that person as well. Some nudges, tips, date reminders.

Tomorrow would’ve been Barry’s birthday. Great time to reach out to Emma. So that it’s not all the responsibility of that overwhelmed, exhausted, grieving person, that we’re also going to equip the husband and the best friend with some practical tips and suggestions for how they can provide support.

And now the same with caregivers and healthcare workers. It’s actually my favorite part about the product. 

Diane Hullet: I love it too because it feels like it weaves a network of support. It isn’t really the Griever being isolated and then the griever receiving some support through texting. It’s really weaving a network, and again, this education component, how do we teach people how to support 

Emma Payne: grievers?

People in our experience, most of us are lucky enough to have someone in our lives who does want to help, but we’re so grief illiterate that people just literally don’t know how. So an example is we had a subscriber Sarah, whose dad died. She was in her late twenties and she was really struggling. She found us on Instagram, started getting text messages, and she added in her boyfriend as a supporter now husband.

So, She’s getting texts for her speaking about her dad’s death and that he died of cancer and so on. But now her husband is getting suggestions for how to support her. So she said, I don’t know what texts you sent him. I never asked. But I do know that on my, on the anniversary of my dad’s death, my husband made a reservation at my dad’s favorite restaurant and we sat and had dinner and talked about my dad.

Game changer, right? Completely changed her experience of grief. And so we reached out, we asked her if we could reach out to him and asked him, Hey Kris, how was it getting those texts? And he’s like, it was such a relief cuz she was crying all the time and I couldn’t make her feel better and I didn’t know what to do.

So thank you for telling me some things I could do. And it made this huge difference. So, you know, not all of our subscribers ad supporters, sometimes they just get messages for the. But when they do some really, really powerful things happen. A couple weeks ago I had you’ll like the story actually, Barbara, given your hospice expertise.

So I had a conversation two weeks ago with Susan, who is a bereavement coordinator at a hospice in Ohio. Her hospice started rolling. Text support for their brief family members. And she was quite skeptical. She’s like, I don’t know. People are not gonna want texts. Like, this is work that we have to do in person.

She was sharing that it was something she thought was a strange idea and that, you know, then they might have even less exposure to the people they’re trying to support. But what she said is two years later, actually the opposite has happened. So she’s talked about a client, a 68 year old year old woman whose husband died.

She’s getting grief support from Hospice of the Western Reserve, and she chooses to start getting texts as well. So she’s getting her texts, but she adds in her 38 year old son as a supporter. So what Susan said is that son would never have come to us for bereavement support after his dad died. We would never have met him.

But he’s willing to take messages to his phone, simple things once a week to give him suggestions for how to help his mom. So one of his suggestions is to start cooking his dad’s favorite food. So he starts going on Sundays to his mom’s house and they think of something that Dad used to like eating, and they try and make it together.

Then his 13 year old daughter gets interested in how do we support grandma now that granddad’s died? And so now she’s getting grief literacy coming to the Sunday dinners. The son is getting grief literacy, right? And they’re supporting the mom. And to me that’s magic. This magic, 

Diane Hullet: I feel like it’s how it should be and how surprisingly it isn’t.

Right. That’s sort of how I think of it. I love it. So it’s like you’re weaving this, this web that supports everybody. And I love that you’ve added in this word being grief illiterate or having grief literacy. There are things we can learn to do this better. That, again, I, I, I never think these things are new.

I just think we’ve forgotten. 

Emma Payne: We’ve forgotten. Yeah. Barbara, were you gonna add 

Diane Hullet: so. 

Emma Payne: Well, a 

Barbara Karnes: huge part of grief is the isolation that is not only self-imposed, I don’t have the energy in my grief to reach out, but as you pointed out and said, other people are uncomfortable reaching out to you, the griever because they don’t know what to do.

So isolation is this huge. Part of grief, just getting a little text. You know, your story of how that expanded from the griever to the son to the granddaughter contradicts the isolation that would’ve been there because no one would know what to do or say, 

Emma Payne: be. That’s pretty 

Diane Hullet: awesome. I feel like I saw on Instagram that there was something for teens coming out.

Am I right about that? 

Emma Payne: Yes. We have messages for people 13 and above, so we have a whole teen series. Melissa who works with me, who is our head of clinical, has decades of experience with teen bereavement, so we’re actually really proud of. Texts for teens, they tend to be shorter, you know, with more emojis.

And we partnered with people like Douggie Center who are world renowned for their incredible work supporting grieving children. So we can link people out to their resources and wisdom as well. Because there’s, here’s the thing, the wisdom is out there. You know, we’re not waiting for a, a new vaccine here.

We do actually know how to support people who are grieving. We do actually know how to support someone who’s caring for somebody who’s dying. We just aren’t getting it to people who need it when they need it. That’s 

Diane Hullet: a fantastic point. The information is there, experts are there, experience is there. Now how do we connect who, who are some of the other people you’ve connected with that are helping craft these 

Emma Payne: messages?

Julia Samuel is a really well known psychotherapist in the uk so it’s been really exciting to be able to share some of her wisdom. We have a lot of subscribers in the uk thanks to a partnership with a large charity there called Sue Ryder, who actually. Text support to anybody in the UK free of charge.

Incredible. Remember you were gonna say something. 

Barbara Karnes: Had an idea. Yes. As you were working is what about texts and a program that addresses people that have been told they can’t be fixed? People that have a life-threatening illness because? With just some support. We can notice, I said we, we, we can help them live their best life.

We can help them live until they’re not. And so often someone’s been told, oh, you’ve got a life threatening illness. I’m having trouble fixing you. And a person’s living stops. Down in their favorite recliner and they might have, well have died that moment because they stopped living. So take what you are doing now and see what a help that would be to help someone live their best life.

Hmm. 

Emma Payne: I love it. Now that we’re realizing how effective text. So we’ve, we started a research team about a year and a half ago. So we’ve now just got our first data published and the, we have a 95% acceptability rate. 95% of our subscribers give us a four to five or a five outta five. When we ask them, are these texts helpful?

Do you feel more supported to Barbara’s part of point about isolation? 95%. Right? That’s huge. 90% of subscribers continue receiving texts for at least six months. Well, bereavement teams will tell you it’s usually difficult to get people back for subsequent support groups and someone on, so six months, 86% for a full year.

95% of people finding the message is helpful, immediately leads to ideas like the one barber just put forward. Then I think about well help text for depress. I’m sending messages after someone dies, but my husband died by suicide, so wouldn’t it have been much more amazing to send messages to him about his experience of depression, but also to me, his wife and his best friend.

How do you support somebody who’s struggling with depression or fill in the blank? Divorce. Who knows? This is 

Diane Hullet: fantastic. It pops in my head. There’s a person on Instagram who works with suicide and she put up an Instagram the other day that said, really the suicide prevention hotline. That’s, that’s the go-to.

Like what about everything before that? Like how can we have conversations with people who are just sort of beginning to think about this? Really? It has to. The phone number, that’s the only way to intervene. And I thought it was such a great comment about how do we intervene sooner in all these ways.

Yeah. I wanna tell you also, just on a personal note, I have a teenager and I, you know, was trying to send her happy little quippy things from Instagram and she was like, yeah, no mom, but then she. She signed up for something that is like a teen inspirational quote thing, and now she shares those with me and she’ll say, look at this amazing quote I got today.

And it’s so cool to see her connect in that way. Hmm. That’s awesome. I think there is really something, I think the pandemic changed us. Obviously, I’m gonna state the obvious here, and I think just in the same way that people have gotten really used to Zoom, and I don’t know that we’re going back to sitting in a church basement.

Having a grief group, even though I think in-person is really important. Zoom groups of grief are also really powerful, and so like that. If we can find ways to connect people, connect them with resources, connect them with information, create educational opportunities, why not? Because I think the days of definitely reaching out in person may have shifted.

Emma Payne: I think everybody grieves differently and people like different types of support. So for some people who can afford it and access it and live close enough to it, it can be therapy with an actual person. But that’s a lot of barriers. Cost, geography, time, so on. Some people will want to do that group setting because that’s particularly helpful for them, but some people, Many, many people ongoing texts just for them is, is enough.

So it’s not for everybody. Some people want more. Right. But it’s enough for many. 

Diane Hullet: It’s, it’s a different way. It’s like, to me it’s, it’s like a tiny thread. You know, it’s just a little important tiny thread. I think in on your website. You’ve got six things that I thought were really great that I wanna say here.

One is that you just say, this is really easy to give. So this is something that you personally can sign up for, but it’s also something you can gift to somebody. And I thought that was really neat. Same price as a 

Emma Payne: bunch of flowers, really. $99. A great sympathy gift. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, so, so say a little more about the affordability piece.

Emma Payne: We’re really working hard to keep it the same price It’s always been since the beginning, but it’s, it is getting harder, but currently it’s $99. That’s a full year of personalized support for you. Usually about 150 messages and another a hundred plus messages for those supporters that you add in. So it’s an awful lot of.

Touchpoints in the course of a year for a really low price, and when organizations purchase in bulk, the price gets even lower. And so we’re really, really, really trying to be accessible and equitable and affordable so that everybody can have Barbara in their pocket. Right. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. I thought that was a really cool aspect too, that organizations can sign up and give this to their employees.

Yeah. 

Emma Payne: Yeah. People are really to your point, I guess, Diane, about how people have changed in the pandemic. I do think, I mean, we all, we had a problem before the pandemic. People were not able to access the support that they needed as caregivers as healthcare workers, as grievers. The, the problems existed before the pandemic.

But the pandemic seems to have shown a very, very bright light on these challenges, and more and more people, including people like employers, are seeing like we have to do more to support our team. It’s not enough to just expect someone to come back to work two days after. Their child dies and that they’re gonna be at full productivity.

I mean, it’s, that was a problem before. That’s a, that’s crazy. But that’s what we were doing. So I think there is more acknowledgement of the problems that existed before the pandemic, and I think just we’re being gentler with each other. It feels to me. Hospice 

Barbara Karnes: healthcare workers have a unique challenge in that our medical model, we’re treating diseases that people have, and death is viewed as a failure.

And those healthcare workers that are working in hospice, they are working with people that happen to have diseases, but there’s still that nudging in the back of their head of this person’s gonna die. And so they have unique mental healthcare challenges. That other healthcare professionals don’t have.

As you said, covid changed in that suddenly the hospital in facilities were dealing with more death than they usually dealt with. So getting the support on your text is, How can I put this? It makes it so the employee does not have to go, and who probably won’t go to their superiors and say, I’m having trouble because we tend to keep those insecurities.

The pain as healthcare workers we’re supposed to be perfect. We hold that inside. And so particularly for those professionals that work with end of life, getting a text is. Yes, I would love them all to be able to verbally share, but most of ’em aren’t going to. And so that text gives them direction and guidance and support that they otherwise wouldn’t have.

Working in a field that is indeed challenging more than most healthcare professionals have to deal with. 

Diane Hullet: Really good point. I think there’s different levels of. Trauma, if you will, different types of grief that come in in depending on what your profession is and what your touchstone is for end of life.

The other thing I wanted to go back to was these things on the website that help text is easy to give. It’s affordable. It’s a gift that keeps on giving, as Emma has said it, it goes on through the course of a year written by experts like Barbara Carns and. The, the messages are both practical and comforting, and I think that’s this piece about education as well as words of, of soft wisdom, and then the fact that they’re personalized and customized.

And I just wondered, Emma, if you could talk a little bit about how do they get personalized and customized? 

Emma Payne: When people sign up, it takes about three or four minutes. They fill in a form and we ask them their name, the name of the person. Who’s died, or if they want to share how they’ve died. The more they share, the more tailored the messages will be.

On the back end, you can imagine one text message is then tagged in lit, literally hundreds of ways. Is it appropriate for all the different kinds of relationships? The more it gets tagged for, the more people it gets sent to you. So really the more people share, the more personalized the messages can be.

So every message has your name in it and talks about the person who’s died. And I just, I mean, what Barbara just shared about hospice nurses and working with people at end of life. That is why we created our second product, right? We were, we were delivering grief support and then we’re working with hospices and we’re seeing these hospice nurses who, like the woman I just shared the story about with the 38 year old son and the granddaughter, like people doing this work, bereavement work, social workers and hospices, hospice nurses seeing death all the time, but not themselves needing support too.

So in their case, when they sign up, they share things like what their role. What is the setting that they work in? They can tell us I work in hospice, or I work in an icu. How often do you see deaths at work? Daily. Weekly. They let us know what kind of deaths, what are the age of the people, is it pediatrics, is it elder, elderly?

And then we can tailor the messages for what they’ve, what they’ve shared. So it’s cool cause it only takes literally three or four minutes to sign up. They share as much as they’re comfortable sharing. And then on the backend tailor messages for them based on what they’ve sent. 

Diane Hullet: I’m so, I’m so happy you spoke to that, cuz I think that’s another aspect of this, that it’s quick, it’s quick to sign up, it’s quick to read on your phone.

You know, those of us with the attention span of a nat these days this is really important to know that this isn’t like a 10 minute thing you have to focus. Yeah. It’s really, really, 

Emma Payne: I know we focus a lot on it and. So quick and easy. And I also think Barbara was just talking about how the hospice nurse might not go to the superior.

It’s also private. We do very private things on with by text. So I think that’s also a big part of it, that it’s easy, but it also just, it’s just for you. We had a 17 year old girl who’s mum. And she said, I wait until after third period and that’s when I read my texts and I haven’t deleted any of them and they’re just for me.

And I’m not a person that wants to sit in a group of people and talk about it. It’s private. I also think it’s why we have such high acceptability rates with men. I was sh sharing how high it is overall, but even higher than that, 95% of this men. So even though men only account for about 9% of our subscribers overall, they’re the ones who love it the most.

And our working theory is that it’s, it’s private. No one even needs to know they’re getting it. It just comes to their phone and they’re just looking at their phone. We have them come back to us and say, oh my gosh, I accidentally deleted my message. Can you send them all back to me again? And then we do.

I think that privacy, it’s easy, but it’s also private and it’s, it’s your, they’re for you. So important. 

Diane Hullet: I just think this is great and I, I’ll winding down here, but I wanna say how to find both of you and then let’s end with the Barbara Kern’s help Text. So you can find out more about ba*****@bk*****.com and you can find out more about the work Emma do**@he******.com with an S on the end, right 

Emma Payne: up text.com.

Yeah, give us an example. So here’s here’s a beautiful one. Hi David. It’s common for dying people to withdraw from activities, friends and family know that withdrawal is not personal. It’s often the body’s way of preparing for death and the mind’s way of focusing on the emotional and spiritual work of dying.

If Gemma’s withdrawing, consider planning activities during her most alert times of day, speak to her in the same tone of voice as you always have. Your care and presence is still being. 

Diane Hullet: Beautiful. So this is a great kind of sample of what comes across when you sign up for help text, and that’s an example for a 

Emma Payne: caregiver.

That’s a caregiver example, that’s, that’s Barbara in the pocket of the caregiver caring for his wife who’s dying. I 

Diane Hullet: think that should be the new tagline, Barbara. I know. I love it in your pocket right here. Well, thank you so much for joining 

Emma Payne: me. Oh, thank you Diane and Barbara, thank you so much. It’s such an.

Barbara Karnes: Oh, well thank you. I really am pleased that we are working together because you’re doing such incredible work. Actually, both of you are doing very, very good work for, for our community and our humanity. Thank you for having. 

Diane Hullet: I love that. Thank you, Barbara. Well, from an idea, born on an airplane to Barbara in your pocket, I think this is a great service.

Thank you so much, em and Barbara, you’ve been listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast, and I’m your host, Diane Huett. Thanks again. 

Diane Hullet

Diane Hullet

End of Life Doula, Podcaster, and founder of Best Life Best Death.

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