Director Scott Kirschenbaum joins me to discuss the powerful documentary, The Last Ecstatic Days, and the transformative journey of making this film. Drawn by a long-standing connection to Dr. Aditi Sethi and the story of Ethan Sisser, Scott traveled from California to North Carolina to document Ethan’s final days. The result is a deeply moving, life-affirming film that honors Ethan’s wish to share his experience with the world. Scott finds himself deeply moved by the way in which Ethan was cared for, and he tells me, “We need to see community death care be a part of the fabric of how we engage with our neighbors. It’s imperative now.” What does that mean? How did Ethan’s experience shape that thinking? And where can you see this film? Coming on PBS in August 2025 and available on streaming platforms everywhere.

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Diane Hullett and you’re listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. I’ve got a wonderful interview today with Scott Kirschenbaum. Hi Scott. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Hi there, Diane. 

Diane Hullet: This is, this is a special one that’s kind of been long in the making because I’ve been sort of. I don’t know, watching this film that Scott’s been so involved with Unfold over a few years.

So Scott is the director of the last Ecstatic days, and he’s, he’s gonna tell us about being part of that film, getting going on that film. The film’s impact, and we’re both very excited because here we are recording at the very beginning of August. 2025 and the film is just about to launch on PBS and all the big streaming apps.

So welcome Scott and tell us you know, just give us a little background, how’d you get into filmmaking? Why this film? All of those good things. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, thanks for having me, Diane. I, you know, I studied film some in college. I was doing a lot of screenwriting and I did some music as well. And I [00:01:00] sadly lost my music partner who took his life.

And after that happened, I pivoted more towards documentaries ’cause I just had this feeling that I needed to, you know, do things that were challenging and that really spoke to my heart and you know, really. Carve these original stories. And so that started me down the path of first going to do a film about a woman with dementia, Alzheimer’s.

And that was filmed entirely in a memory care unit. And that was also on PBS, but, and that’s called, you’re looking at me like I live here and I don’t, and that, that created this template or model that I. And have continued to use, which is really like zooming in on one person in one location and, and trying to understand the dynamics that are going on around, you know, the unfolding of a major event.

And I, you know, I did this, I did a birth film that was called, these are My Hours. And that’s kind of ironically how I got involved in this death film is that some people in Asheville had seen [00:02:00] that and said, Hey, we should reach out to Scott about the, this death project. Yeah. 

Diane Hullet: Wow. Incredible. Tell us, you know, give us the, the.

Oh, there’s so much even to say just about that. I mean, first of all, the impact of, of suicide right? Is such a huge, huge piece. And I, I try to say the word and bring it forward. ’cause I just think everyone has an impact of a suicide and somewhere in their lives and, and it’s, it’s big. So that happened and it had a huge impact on your trajectory, it sounds like.

Scott Kirschenbaum: No, absolutely. I mean, I carry my music partner James Deru with me, you know, all the time. I even have his ashes tattooed into my ankle. You know, because he was the most powerful artist I had ever met and known. And so, you know, he was definitely present with me in this film with Ethan as well. You.

Diane Hullet: Absolutely. And then, so for those who are listening who haven’t seen the film or heard of the film, tell us you know, the title and kind of the big [00:03:00] arc of the movie. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, so the movie is called The Last Ecstatic Days, and it tells the story of how Ethan Cser, who was a 36-year-old, you know, yoga practitioner and a body worker, he just found out he had glioblastoma brain cancer brain tumor, and he only had about 18 months left to live at the most, and he was alone in his hospital room, and he just started.

Posting and live streaming on social media. Pretty much more than you had could, could ever imagine a human being doing during the course of their sort of death journey or that season of life. And he just started amassing followers all over the world. And then he started appearing on podcasts and eventually.

A group in Asheville connected with him and brought him here, and at that point in time, you know, I had, I had had known the doctor a Didi Sethy from years before. We had [00:04:00] had a friendship and connection in Asheville, and so they suggested reaching out to me. I was in northern California at the time, so on the other side of the country.

And the, the basic idea was, will you. Will you speak to Ethan? Will you, you know, just there’s this guy who wants to film his own death. Little, you know, did Ethan know? And you know, the rest of the folks, like, I have a remarkable unending fear of death throughout my entire life. Like it is you know, really challenging for me.

You know, I have panic attacks, whatever. It was always a topic that I wanted to avoid in conversation. So. You know, when I got that call from Ethan and, you know, when we started having this conversation, he said, will you film? He basically said straight, straight ahead, you know, like, will you do this with me?

And that was about, as, you know, significant, a spiritual moment as I’ve had in my artistic life. ’cause I, I couldn’t say no. And. It [00:05:00] happened to be this, you know, question, like being a mensch. When I was a kid growing up, I had heard that Yiddish expression, Zion mech be a gentleman, and that was from an elder at my synagogue.

And I, it’s, you know, it’s challenging. Like, how do you know how to be a mensch? How do you know how to show up as a mensch? And in this situation, Ethan was a few years young, you know, four years younger than me. He was born Jewish. And I’m like, if I can’t help a dying Jewish brother crossover die.

Like what kind of man am I? So I was just like, we’ve gotta do it. Somehow I. 

Diane Hullet: And at that point was Ethan, you know, weeks from death or months from death, pretty close to the end. You came in, 

Scott Kirschenbaum: he was weeks from death. Yeah. So I think Aditi connected with him about 18 days before he died. And for folks who don’t know, it’s, I’m referring to Dr.

Aditi s who has gone on to found the Center for Conscious Living and Dying. And so, you know, I had heard. Her descriptions [00:06:00] of caring for people in a hospice unit. And the other key element at play is that she had told me probably 10 years prior that she sometimes plays harmonium during that transition.

Or you know, when people are in their last hours and. I had that, an indelible image that that would be so exquisite on film. How incredible. I just never thought I’d be the one who’d be filming it, you know, because, you know, this is, this is the subject I at least wanted to do a film about. But you know, when you think about Ethan and how sweet he is, and you think about Aditi and you know, I was just following their dynamic and their relationship unfold at the bedside.

Diane Hullet: I love this sense that you are following this, this, you know, I, I think paths open like this in our lives, right? We have these hits. So 10 years ago you had this kind of hit of like, oh, I can see that. I can hear that. I can see that. That’ll be an amazing film someday. [00:07:00] Won’t that be great that somebody makes it and then here you are the one who actually makes it.

But. I also love this Scott, that it was like following their sweetness and their unfolding and also the timeliness of it. Like, it wasn’t like you could think of this for six months, you know, and be like, I’ll get back to you. I mean, you had to kind of jump in reorient, fly from California and start filming and, and what you were filming was someone dying.

So, but dying with such openness and such clarity and such community pulled together by Dr. Sethy that you know. Yeah, for those listening who haven’t seen it, it’s a really life affirming film that’s taking place as someone’s dying. But there’s this incredible ability to feel the affirmation that I think Ethan lived with and you clearly brought to the table as a mensch, and that Dr.

Adii and the people she brought just created this incredible atmosphere to somehow capture on film. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, and I would say, you know, [00:08:00] now we’re in the process of releasing this and, and doing, you know, larger conversations, presenting at universities. And what, for me, I had no clue that after this I could, you know, I, I now understand this concept that feels.

So important and it’s community death care. I have been able to speak, frankly, about the fact that I have never experienced community like I experienced at Ethan’s bedside. That tenderness, the sweetness, the softness, the surprises, you know, the, IM, if you will, if I like improv comedy, you know, there’s improv.

Around the deathbed as well. You never know who’s gonna say this one remark or you know, there was a constant question of when? When Will Ethan say his last words? Well, you know. The end the very last con, I mean, I don’t wanna ruin too much in, in the film, but you know, there’s something that sits with [00:09:00] me and I clearly impacted a didi, is that, you know, Ethan says, does dying need to be a lonely, solitary experience or could it be communal?

And I saw you can just watch Aditi in that moment and you’re like. That’s what she’s been waiting to hear. That’s what all these folks that I now understand in the death world want to hear, like that there is community here and we can lead this larger conversation around community by focusing on caring for the dying.

I think. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. And then somehow that parallels to what you’ve described in the films you made earlier too, which is focus on an individual in order to amplify a bigger question, issue, dilemma, experience, right? Because that, that question can death be a community and a communal event is so powerful. We’re so far from it right now.

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, and I think, you know, as this film is coming out after this, the passing of this one big, [00:10:00] beautiful bill, we need to be talking about hospice care in America. It’s going to suffer tremendously in so many ways. In my conversations I’ve been having with hospice doctors and care providers, this is going to be a crisis and we need to see community death care be a part of the fabric of how we engage with our neighbors.

It’s just, it’s an imperative now. So I hope that people will see this movie and say, yeah, this is. So sweet that Ethan asks to be in community when he died and received that gift and that this, everyone can have this experience. Everyone is allowed to ask for this. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, and that and that everyone who showed up for Ethan or everyone who I think shows up for somebody who’s dying gets that experience of a, of a, I hate to call it like an altered state of consciousness community, because that’s just starts to sound all woo woo or something.

But it really is, you [00:11:00] know, when you’re with someone who is dying, the world falls away. The thing that you thought was important or the, the pressures of productivity or something, they fall away for this greater. Human transforming experience of moving through death. And that’s, that’s what, that is a gift to all those who are living in that community as well as to the dying.

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, I’d say Diane, that that point, that’s been a, also an extended gift of this film because I’ve gone to meet death doulas who understand that, you know, grok that concept, if you will, that a, when you’re in that flow of, you know, hours to days or days to weeks. So many of those distractions fall away and you can just be in that immediate, intimate space with someone and it’s, you can’t help but feel love.

It’s, yeah. It’s there. And yeah, it’s a good lesson for me too. I mean, [00:12:00] everyone talks about mindfulness. Well, now you understand why people refer, you know, have a death practice or a death meditation, or that psychedelics are a way to prepare yourself for dying. It’s all makes sense now. 

Diane Hullet: Yes, yes. Oh, I just love that.

I don’t know if listeners can, I don’t know if people, you know, follow all that, but I, but I hope so, because I think this is like the crux of what the movie’s about. I mean the movie’s about Ethan, movie’s about that experience, the movie’s about that community. But it’s really about a broader question of what does it mean to die today?

And is it possible to create something that has meaning? For everyone involved. And in that shapes our society’s experience of dying. ’cause we’ve got, we’ve gotten far away. Not, not everyone, not all communities, but many people are pretty far away from thinking that dying is a rich, human transformative experience.

Right? I mean, most people are like, death. That’s the enemy. Ah, I don’t wanna talk about it. I don’t wanna go there. [00:13:00] And yet a film like this shows us that there is another possibility. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, I think. It’s a radical assertion that Ethan makes when he says, he poses these questions like, can death be fun? Can death be psychedelic?

Could death be the most beautiful experience ever? And I know, you know, one of the medicine elders who was in the film Greg Lathrop, who’s part of the community at Center for Conscious Living and Dying, he often mentions that this last breath is your easiest. I think that’s so remarkable like this.

This thought that as we’re winding our way towards the end, things could be easier, things could be more fun. You know, things could be joyous. And that’s why, I mean, that’s why we got this. We arrived at this title. We, you know, we didn’t know what the title would be going into this. We didn’t even think we were filming a feature film.

It, it became clear that these can be ecstatic days, you [00:14:00] know? They really can and, and there’s value in putting intention to that in advance. I know that, you know, in the death world they talk about advanced directives. Well, also, it’s okay to write, it’s, you have permission to write out a guided image or you know, of what you’d like those last weeks to be if you get that opportunity to prepare for it.

Diane Hullet: And of course, this is the difference between a sudden death, which is. You know, sudden and instant and hard on those left behind often. But when there is time and there is often some amount of time, then how can that time be used with intention by everyone involved And, and it does take putting a lot of the.

A normal quote unquote life on hold in order to be in that intentional space. And I see sometimes, you know, families get sort of impatient. Everybody gets sort of like, well, okay, you know, die already. Like, can we hurry this thing along because I think there’s. There’s just so few places [00:15:00] in our lives where we go that slow and it’s breath to breath and it’s just, it takes as long as it takes and it’s a process, it’s a labor, it’s not fast.

And so I think, you know, you feel that some in the film, that anticipation of the last breath and, and the, oh, is it gonna be this day? Is it gonna be this day? And yet, as you witness the film, you watch everybody just. Take their time with it. And there is this incredible opportunity. This doesn’t give anything away really.

It, it helps set up the film to say that somebody offered their home to Ethan and said, okay, we can use this space, we can use this place, and people can come here and the film crew can come and various healers and community members. And so that it all unfolds in this beautiful space. And, and I always wonder, you know, I always say.

Wow. Why aren’t there more of those? Right. And this is what Dr. Sethy has created down in Asheville, is this Center for conscious living and conscious dying. CL Wait, CLCD. CCLD. I always mix it up. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: You got it. CLD. Yes. [00:16:00] 

Diane Hullet: Ccld. You can follow them, check them out on Instagram, Facebook, all that good stuff. And, and what they are creating is a place where people can come to die.

And it’s very beautiful. And I think that, oh, I, you know, I always go, why isn’t there one of these? Why isn’t there an Omega house kind of model in every community? And there’s just not, there’s not the funding, there’s not the support, there’s not the volunteer level. But what if there were. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Oh yeah. It is one of the, you know, great reflections coming out of this film, and I, you know, we, we don’t need to, there’s, there’s no attempt to sugarcoat or, you know you know, inflate all the different ideas of, like, we, it’s not just pure poetry.

Like there is hard work in this as well, and you’re getting to like the basics of this. A stranger, Nate. Had moved into a new house. He never had met Ethan in his life. Ethan wanted to film [00:17:00] his death. He couldn’t do that in the hospice where he was based. He was situated, and Nate just said, you can come here and then, you know, for the entirety of that process, he didn’t.

Flinch once no matter what. And you know, he just was said, oh, he just said, this is where, this is a space where someone should be able to dictate how they die and, and have the freedom in that journey. And so like he’s an exemplar in his own right. And it’s something that is achievable all around the country.

We can have these, we can have small one one room houses or, you know. Just spaces where people in religious groups can die together. Whatever it is, there ought to be free end of life care. It’s just a no-brainer. It will help everyone and it also helps the institutions. You know, whatever insurance companies, everyone wins.

It’s a win-win, win. However many ways around if our community participates in [00:18:00] caring for our diet. 

Diane Hullet: Oh, I, that’s just sort of a fabulous teaser to put out there. Like how might we organize, like the image I have of is like weaving, like how do we weave these communities that can then provide support? You know, it’s really, it’s incredible.

And, and maybe, you know, I wanted to ask you, why do you think this film touches audiences? So, and. I’ll ask you that question, but then I’ll also like pause it and answer myself. I mean, part of it I think is that it’s seeing this community care for this man and it, it wasn’t his family. It wasn’t people he’d known for 40 years.

It wasn’t his next door neighbor. It was truly strangers stepping forward. But why, why do you think it’s such a moving film? 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Well there, when I’m in an audience, that’s when it’s particularly palpable. ’cause as you pointed out, you’re with Ethan’s breath more and more and things slow down more and more and there’s just, you know, collective listening.

And so for some people, you know, maybe it assuages a [00:19:00] fear of death. What I have been most touched by is when someone walks out the door of the movie theater and throws their arms around me and basically is like. My mom had her death was nothing like that. And it brings me so much catharsis to see that that’s possible.

And I will now know when my dad dies, that I’m gonna make every effort that he has even something 10% like what Ethan had. So there’s that. There’s the. Healing from a say traumatic or very challenging passing of a loved one. And then there’s that key piece that you point out. It’s a life affirming film.

Like, you know, everyone’s always bemoaning social media, doom scrolling. Here’s a dude who went on social media and he got his wish and had a blast doing it. 

Diane Hullet: I, and that’s one of the interesting pieces of the film that you had to obviously sort of backfill. I mean, you jumped [00:20:00] in in these final days and then you backfilled, how do I tell this story ahead of time?

And one of the, so moving things to me in, in the film is the way that. You know, you cut in old footage like there’s Ethan in a dance class or there’s Ethan doing this incredibly difficult yoga pose, and you look at his body and the strength and his muscles and then it cuts back to him in his final days.

And you think, wow, the human body. Like what a miracle of strength and resilience and how fragile and how tenacious. And how ultimately it’s a vessel that we leave. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah. I mean, I, I remember the day that I called up one of our assistant editors. I’m like, I think this dude live streamed more of his death footage than any other human that’s ever lived.

What are we supposed to do? We have like 75 hours of this. ’cause I hadn’t seen a second of it before we started filming. I just spoke to him and everyone said he was. The suite [00:21:00] purse presence and you know, 72 hours, I was ba later I was basically on a red eye flight to Asheville and we were putting this together on the fly.

And then only in post-production afterwards did we start talking and say, well, we can create this layered non-linear porch. Tap, you know, sort of mosaic of his life and kind of juxtapose that with the stages of his not eating and drinking and, you know, eventually leaving his body. And so it all, it was, you know, a lot of playing around and, and kind of seeing how to create this, you know, somewhat of a sequence or a flow between the memories and the history.

And who, you know, his, the, like li the incredible life force he possessed and that bringing us back to this moment where say he can’t drink anymore or, you know, can’t use one of his arms. 

Diane Hullet: Well, I just think as a filmmaker, you, you know, [00:22:00] you did quite an incredible job of the juxtapositions in that mosaic and, and as you said, capturing his oh, I don’t know how to pronounce it in French, but you know, Jo de ViiV.

Is that what you say? You know, capturing his joy. And juxtaposing it with the quiet, different kind of joy in his ending. I, I just think it had to be a remarkable film to work on because of, like you said, all the incredible footage that you had to go back in and, and figure out at the end. 

Scott Kirschenbaum: I have never cried so much in my life.

And, and it’s good like the secondary teaching of making this was kind of going to grief grad school and just. Feeling those feelings. You know, as one of our associate produ producers put it like cracking myself open more and more and just like understanding that there’s the grief and the love and they’re right there together.

Diane Hullet: Oh, Scott, I love that. I think that’s so powerful. That’s, that’s, that’s such a piece of this, [00:23:00] the death work and the end work for us individually and as communities and as people working in the end of life field. Right? Because, you know, there’s this kind of what do I wanna say? Like. It is common for people to say to me, oh, you work in the end of life field.

Or I, I hear this from hospice people too. Oh, that must be really depressing. Or a palliative care doctor, you know, someone will say, oh, that sounds like really tough work. What they don’t understand is that in addition to the grief and the death, there’s also heart cracking families saying things they’ve never said.

There’s so much love and joy and humor, you know, dark, humorous humor as things go awry. I mean, it’s, it’s just, it’s the most alive kind of field to be in, I think. But not if you keep it at arm’s length and feel it just as the fear. So I don’t know, did this. Did this experience shift your lifelong fear of death?

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yes, I, I was surprised at how [00:24:00] comfortable I have become to, you know, be present with, you know, when they have the body laying in state or resting and, you know, one activity. When you asked about changing my relationship with death, one activity that I’ve now gotten to experience is changing ice packs.

With the dead, dead body before going to a green cemetery and just getting some, experience with the poetry and the beauty of all that. You know, having time with the dead body and not rushing it off, like that’s just remarkable. And that’s a big benefit of, you know, not just with CCLD, the organization.

It’s not just the idea of providing free end of life care, but also the opportunity to have the community come see. The dead body and be with the dead body and sing and pray and hold each other and like have that continue on. That has been. Very surprisingly touching for me to, to [00:25:00] experience that one of our executive producers passed away during the film.

And, you know, after going to a film festival, I flew back and the first thing I did was I went and visited the fellow who was doing the, like overnight shift with her body changing ice packs. And I just sat there and, and that’s how we, we spent a few hours just like sitting there and talking and being with her.

And that was remarkable. Yeah. And if I may say her name is Katie Fisher. And I loved when, when we had her a funeral at the Green Cemetery in the obituary. At the very end I saw, she said please everyone see the last ecstatic days, and if you can donate to the Center for Conscious Living and Dying.

And it just, that’s nice to know that the film and and a Didi’s organization have that connection for people. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, that kind of inspiration. Well, Scott, I’m, I’m thrilled that the film was made. You know, I’m thrilled that Ethan had the impulse to do [00:26:00] that, that you and Aditi had already connected, that you were called in, that you made the film, LA la la spent hours going through footage and now it’s really going to a wider audience.

’cause it’s kind of been it independent film festivals and shown by places like Best Life, best Death, and, you know, these smaller venues. But tell us this exciting in August of 2025, what’s happening now? 

Scott Kirschenbaum: So now we are releasing an hour long version of the film for PBS. It’s gonna start airing on August 5th, and it’ll be available, you know, online and on local PBS affiliates for the next three years.

So it’s really gonna help us reach a much bigger audience. You know, it’s already on Apple and Amazon Prime and a lot of other platforms, so it’s, it’s out there, but. It’s just exciting for people to know that there’s this kind of death film, you know, that this is available. There are many different types of films you can watch, and it’s like, if you want to have this experience with Ethan, it’s probably [00:27:00] gonna be life affirming.

You know, it’s probably gonna be a positive thing, you know, even if you have a profound fear. The nice thing is PBS is saying, we wanna show this there, this matters. This is significant culturally, and I, I love that they’ve been championing us. You know, that is a testament to what PBS is all about. So we’re proud of getting this opportunity and I think it’s gonna be a real boon for the film.

Diane Hullet: And it, it does speak to a shift in societal interest in this area and willingness to look, because I know I talked with filmmaker Johanna Lun at one point, and she said, you know, when she first had the idea about making a film about end of life PBS was like, oh yeah, no, nobody wants to see that not happening.

You know? And so it kind of got shelved until she came back to it some years later. But, but like you had had this kind of experience of these you know. Path being laid down that she was meant to follow and make those films. Another film on PBS if people haven’t seen it, is Jack has a plan, [00:28:00] really powerful film by director Bradley Berman.

And you know, there’s something, I wonder if you would speak to this. I, I, why? You know, why does it matter to see movies like this? I, I think it’s interesting how a visual experience of watching a film can have a bigger impact on someone than a conversation or. A podcast or I, I don’t know. Why do films make such a difference in how we take in information?

Scott Kirschenbaum: I think this particular film, there’s an experience that people have somatically, and the way I have heard it be described is release. That there’s a sense of release and you know, there’s a reset that might happen with it. There might be of like some tucked away grief from years past or something that’s been sit, you know, hindering you or you know, like on your heavy, on your heart.

And just being with Ethan as he releases, I think [00:29:00] that’s significant for people. You know, I’ve heard an elder gentleman talk about like. The meditative quality of being with Ethan’s breath to the very end. And that’s quite a reframe on life. You know, we don’t often think, okay, let’s just, you know? Yes.

In yoga Yes. In the in Shavasana, and, and this is just saying, you know, we’re gonna stay with him through this entire journey. 

Diane Hullet: Wow. Well, Scott anything else you wanna add for listeners? How, what’s the website? How can people find out more about this film? 

Scott Kirschenbaum: Yeah, I mean, obviously the film is on Instagram and Facebook.

Just if you look up the last ecstatic days or the last Ecstatic Days movie and the website is the last ecstatic days, movie.com. And yeah, thank you so much. I hope folks can check the movie out if they haven’t gone to see it already. 

Diane Hullet: I hope so too, and I’ll just put in a plug again about how mind [00:30:00] changing, I think films can be, because there’s just something about it.

I often go to a film like this and while I’m sitting there, I’m like, oh, I wish I’d told all my friends to come. Oh, I should have told my parents about this movie. You know, oh, everyone I know should see this film. I get all like, excited about it. And I think it’s just because it, it, it changes us. Yeah.

Well, I’m excited, so thrilled you jumped on that red eye and went out there and met Ethan and started to film because you’ve created a remarkable piece that is, is truly a touching, life affirming and life changing film to see. Well, 

Scott Kirschenbaum: thank you very much, Diane. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, super. I’ve been chatting with Scott Kirschenbaum, director of the Last Ecstatic Days, and as he said, you can find out more about this movie at the last ecstatic days movie.com.

And as always, you can find out more about the work I do at Best Life. Best death.com. Thanks so much for listening.