To sum up this episode, I’d say: listen to learn all about Death Cafés from a seasoned facilitator! How does it work? Who attends? What sorts of things are discussed? And how can I find one near me? Pull up a chair at this conversation about Death Cafés – where talking about the end is just the beginning of a really lively conversation.

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Diane Hullet, and you’re listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast, and I’m very excited to have a return Guest today. Welcome to Rachel Donnelly. Hi, Diane. How are you? Good to see you again. Yeah, I’m so happy to be talking again, Rachel. Rachel and I talked back on Best Life, best Death, number 78.

And Rachel is an after loss professional and she’s a co-founder of pals, a professional organization for After Loss Professionals. And you’ve just written a book and the book is so fantastic and I can’t wait to talk about it. So tell us a little about your business and about the name of your book. 

Karen Keeran: Yeah.

Well, thank, like I said, thank you so much for having me again. It’s always good to come back and see you after two years. But yeah. So what is an after loss professional? We like to say that we are skilled professionals that help clients manage the unavoidable logistics of losing a loved one. So we [00:01:00] are like quarterbacks.

For executors. So we help people sort of deal with the paperwork, the administrative tasks of settling an estate. Many of our clients are going through the estate administration process and we are that skill project manager. Air traffic control for settling an estate, keeping track of all the moving parts, deadlines, where to mail things off.

Bureaucratic red tape. We like to say we’re like empathetic detectives for, or estate administration. 

Diane Hullet: Such great phrases I think. I think, oh boy, if you’re listening and you haven’t been through this process yet, buckle up because it is so much work and takes so much time and has so many details to it and is so frustrating and I think, you know, employing a professional, if you can afford that to help you.

Just makes a giant difference in your experience of it [00:02:00] all. Yeah. 

Karen Keeran: Yeah. And this is an expense that you can pay out of, out of the estate. Right. So many of our clients, most of our clients, of course, when they’re going through the estate administration co process, this is yet another line item that they can utilize estate assets to pay for.

Right? And I, I created this profession. My company, because I needed this when I lost, you know, I’d lost my dad at an early age and I lost my mom when I had two very small kids and was trying to work full time. And then I, my mom’s death led me to have to take care of her brother who was going through Parkinson’s disease and had significant cognitive decline and no immediate family.

So I became. His, you know, healthcare power of attorney, his financial power of attorney, and so doing all those things, we’re all trying to settle up my parents’ estate, right, and take care of two small kids, work, do the laundry, and you know, figure out [00:03:00] what’s for dinner. Is a completely overwhelming process and I would’ve given anybody anything to have sort of that skilled project manager to help walk me through the process.

Diane Hullet: Project. Project. No jerk. Yeah. Project manager seems like the key phrase. That’s so, yeah. 

Karen Keeran: Yeah. And you know, I thought, why does this exist? And a light bulb just went off. After I was an executor, you know, two times in tandem, my mom died and then my uncle died. So I was still settling my mom’s estate. It just, I just, this needs to be a thing.

Why is it there? A wedding coordinator, but for death. 

Diane Hullet: Okay. And you have a great line in the book where you say, your grandfather said to you, find something that sucks and then make a job out of it because people will pay you to do it because it sucks. And I thought, yeah. So funny. Yeah, 

Karen Keeran: it’s, and I mean, they talk about that on Shark Tank too, right?

Like that’s the whole find a gap in the market. And create a business. And I knew I couldn’t be alone in [00:04:00] experiencing these pain points, right? We don’t talk about death, therefore we don’t talk about what happens after death and all of the bureaucratic red tape. And so then people have to go through this sort of mental energy of recreating the wheel each time.

And why? Like why aren’t there skilled professionals that can help walk you through this? 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. So, so out of your incredible, varied experience, you’ve written a book and the book is called Late To Your Own Funeral, how to Leave a Legacy and Not a Log Jam. And what I love is right from the get go when you see this book, listeners.

The, the picture on the cover is a log jam of caskets in a river, and you see right from the get go, you see this is going to be a serious book, but also a humorous book. There is some great tongue in cheek commentary in it. And most importantly to me is there is an incredible amount of [00:05:00] varied anecdotes, and so you see over and over again in short paragraphs or in longer passages.

This work really in practice, why it makes a difference, what people do, and the kinds of ways that people are just completely overwhelmed when someone dies. 

Karen Keeran: Yeah. You know, I like to say I have my MDA, my Master’s in Death administration, right? Which is what, what led me, of course, to become an after loss professional and then to write this book because I kept seeing the same sort of repeat offenders of events happening with clients over and over again, and I just felt I had to get this book out on paper.

I had to get it out of my brain. Now, having worked on over a hundred estates, I’ve seen just. Like I said, the same mistakes that people either don’t know that they need to do ahead of time or don’t, just don’t do it right. Because as you know, Diane, we would rather set our hair on fire than than prepare for our own death.[00:06:00] 

And I thought, you know what, Houston, we’ve got a problem if. We have such access to information, yet people still aren’t doing, doing the work, walking the walk, talking the talk. 

Diane Hullet: Well, you had some incredible statistics about wills. I mean, the number of people creating wills and estate plans is actually going down.

Yeah, and there was a particular section I really like. It was called 10 out of 10 of us will die in our Lifetime. I think that’s an important statistic to, yeah. Yeah. And then you said, here are the classic excuses that I hear all the time. Wrapped in denial. Dread or just plain old defiance. Yeah, and so I’ll just say the say what they are.

One of them is I’ll be dead. What do I care? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Karen Keeran: People say that all the time and it makes me want to. Like lose my mind. ’cause 

Diane Hullet: what’s the problem with that one? I’ll be dead. I don’t care. [00:07:00] My, you know, my kids are smart. They’ll figure it out. What do you, I’m just gonna throw it out 

Karen Keeran: there.

That is incredibly selfish, right? You know, it is like having a dinner party that you can’t de to prepare for, to manage, to clean up afterwards, and you expect other people to do that. Why are you expecting people to take time out of their life? What, you know, what’s important to them, their, you know, their family and clean up the mess.

That you couldn’t dare to do yourself. I think that that is just incredibly selfish. Now, I will say there are times that people don’t get around to this. Tragedies happen all the time, and I understand that. But if someone says that, that, that tells me that they’re having that thought in their brain, oh, I know I should probably do something about this, but I’m just not going to, and you are leaving somebody to clean up after your life.

To, to, you know, have ESP right? To figure out everything that was part of your life when they’re [00:08:00] grieving you, and it really hamstrings your grief and, and it doesn’t allow you to go through that grieving process. And when you’re robbed of that. That is it very unhealthy. Right? And I was robbed of that experience with my mom and then, you know, my uncle and because I was dealing with a flaming dumpster fire.

Diane Hullet: Yeah. Yep. It’s, it, it is so true. So one excuse, I’ll be dead. What do I care? Right? Another excuse. Is this just too depressing to think about? And you say. Oh, the number of times I’ve heard this one as if some folks think that discussing estate planning is an instant mood killer, when in fact it can be really empowering.

Right? It, 

Karen Keeran: it can be, you know, I keep saying this. I, I read a statistic a long time ago. I need to find it. That, that you are actually more inclined to live longer if you go through the estate planning process. I need to find that sta it’s somewhere, [00:09:00] but I read that. I don’t know if that’s true. I’m gonna find it, but I feel so much more empowered.

I feel so much better, especially, you know, having minor children. Yes. Knowing that, and even if you do, you don’t, but knowing that everything is buttoned up, it’s such a weight off your shoulders when, when you’ve gone through that process, right? Yes. And you’ve taken care of your stuff. 

Diane Hullet: Yes. And another one is, oh, I’m too young to worry about that now.

Right? Yeah. Anybody who’s sort of under 70 and listening, eh, you might think you’re young, but this, this is so important to lay out these pieces, think these things through and not leave a mess. Because I think there’s so much when we die that we, oh gosh. I, I mean, I just think our lives have gotten so complicated, right?

They have. And so the number of passwords that we have. And the simple idea of how do you get into your phone? Yeah. These are, these are huge when people die and their loved ones [00:10:00] don’t have access to those computers and accounts. 

Karen Keeran: Yeah. 

Diane Hullet: And phones. It’s a big deal and you lose everything. 

Karen Keeran: And that’s not even those digital assets with maybe financial you know, value or, or exchange value, whether it’s, you know, airline points or Amazon points.

But it’s also those assets that have. Sentimental value, right? Like I think about the videos, the pictures of my kids, our family vacations, right? And I’ve had so many clients come to me and their loved one has died and they didn’t know the unlock code to their phone. They didn’t, you know how to get into their computer.

And all of those memories are gone. You can’t just pick up the phone and call Apple or Google, it’s not gonna happen. So that is such an heart, a heartbreaking aspect. So yes, you can maybe figure out some of the financial stuff. You can reverse engineer, which is what we help clients do, but those, that memories, those, those [00:11:00] precious moments, they can, they can go away.

Diane Hullet: Oh, so painful on top of the loss, right? Yeah, that’s, that’s the piece. Do you have, so do you work from kind of a, you know, do you create a spreadsheet? Do you have kind of, you say, okay, here’s the project, here’s the the wedding plan, that’s not a wedding and here’s what we need to find and get numbers for and account numbers for and passwords and all of that.

Karen Keeran: Yeah, that’s the first, I’d say step in either whether you’re doing pre-planning or what I call legacy organization. Or the after loss services that we help clients with is getting organized, right? Like let’s create a spreadsheet to build out the scaffolding of the estate, the assets. The liabilities.

What are the online accounts, right? Do they have an Etsy account? Do they have, you know, how do they keep track? How do they keep track of their passwords? Where do they store photos? Right? So those sorts of things. So that, whether you’re doing the administration or the [00:12:00] planning, then you can keep track of all those things.

Because one of the biggest blind spots that clients come to me is they, I, I don’t know. What, what bank were they banked? I don’t know if they had life insurance. I don’t know if they had retirement accounts. So they don’t know those simple assets and you can’t just go to some website and type in their name and it spits out their, what they owe and what they own.

It’s not like that. So that’s, we, we help clients to reverse engineer that when we’re working with them. But, and the legacy organization, let’s write all this down and keep it updated so people know, okay, these are what I would need to close, transfer, archive, what have you. 

Diane Hullet: Oh, so amazing. I’m just thinking, I mean, back in the day, I think, you know, if you lived in a small hometown and there was one bank, it, you know, it was just so different.

And I think now, like, yeah, people often work with a couple different banks. Sometimes a business account is at one and a personal accounts at another. Sometimes a husband and and wife might have two [00:13:00] different accounts plus a joint account. Yeah. So who, who knows what all those account numbers are? If you, yeah, if you are well organized, maybe they’re in your file drawer in a hard copy.

But a lot of people don’t have that anymore. No, 

Karen Keeran: they, well, so many things are delivered via electronic, you know, statements, right? Yeah. And baby boomers were really big on diversification and they, that to them meant having their money stashed over several different banking institutions, right? So. To them, they were so afraid of banks failing from their parent, what they learned from their parents, right?

So it, there’s literal just hodgepodge of assets everywhere and it becomes a scavenger hunt. 

Diane Hullet: What, what we were talking also about there’s this great statistic about how many people Google what ha what is the question they ask? 

Karen Keeran: Yeah. So they ask, what do you do when someone dies? It’s a very simple question.

I think it’s Googled a hundred million times a month, which that [00:14:00] just seems like you think about that for a second. You’re like, wow. So that tells me. While people really don’t know what to do, they don’t know what, what the step one is, step two, step three, how to get started, what to triage, what the process and the protocol is.

So I think people are just completely lost. 

Diane Hullet: Well, again, one of the things I love about your book is that you know, you, you say right up front, I’m not an estate planner. I’m not an attorney. I’m not a financial person. This is, it’s almost more palatable. It’s more accessible than what an estate attorney might say to you.

I. But you’ve got a wonderful chapter called Estate Planning. It’s for everyone. And you talk about why it’s important and what that means. And I think so many people think, well, I don’t have that many assets. Well, do you drive a car? Do you, yeah. Somewhere, you know? Yeah, those, those right there mean that you have something that has to be cared for.

Karen Keeran: You do. And. The size of your estate does not equate tangentially of how long it’s gonna [00:15:00] take to administer it, right? Some of the smallest accounts from getting money from a PayPal account can take just, it’s just sort of a wormhole of logistics. So you have, if you owe, and if you, you own, you have an estate.

If you’re 18 and breathing. You have an estate, so we all, this is something that we all need to do. 

Diane Hullet: I love that. If you owe and you own, that’s so well said. Then you’ve got an estate and somehow estate, I think we think of like giant English mansions, like Downton Abbey or something like that’s an estate, you know, 

Karen Keeran: I know people.

Then that’s another one of those sort of, you know, those the, what am I trying to say? Things that people think is not true, right? They think I don’t have an estate. Because they, they’re ex, you know, envisioning sprawling, you know, mansion, like you said in in Essex. And you know, you have an estate, baby girl.

I’m sorry. You’ve got a condo and you drive a car. Yes. Yeah, [00:16:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Diane Hullet: Well, there’s so much else in the book that I love, and one of the things I love is that you sprinkled it with a lot of humor. So here’s a couple of chapter titles, people. Chapter one is The Business of Death, the Flaming Dumpster Fire.

We leave in our wake. Very important. Very important to talk about the dumpster Fire chapter two, what happens after When you don’t Do Shit? Right? And then chapter three, talking about it. We’re scared to death to talk about death. So I just think there’s so much here. Let’s talk about chapter six, which is called.

The stuff Emmic, nobody wants your Hummel figurine collection. How did you get started writing that chapter? 

Karen Keeran: Oh my gosh. Well, let me, let me see. It came from it, it started from me when, after my, my mom died, that I had to clean out my, our family home in eastern Tennessee, which had been in our family since 1890 and I was cleaning out just decades and decades.[00:17:00] 

Big brown furniture, crystal China, silver letters, photos, tin types. Right? And they had hung onto this stuff as if it were just the most prized possessions everywhere. And because nobody, the house still hung around, right? It just stayed there. Right? People don’t have that family home anymore. So where does that stuff go?

So, so many times when people come to me as clients, they say, my God, my mom has left me all of those things. She, I’ve, I’ve been to many a house where there is a whole wall of humble figurines and they’re like, I do not want this. And they, they feel this guilt. Of my mom has been, you know, had this shining spotlight on this collection her entire life, and now it’s, she’s left it to me as if I want it, and I do not.

So there’s this constant push pull between the baby [00:18:00] boomer, boomer generation, the gen genetic X-ers, the millennials of, they don’t want this stuff. It doesn’t fit our lifestyle, it doesn’t fit. You know what, how we wanna decorate our house. We do not put value in those sorts of things. So I want to shout from the rooftop.

Stop hanging on to stuff that your family doesn’t want, and it will become a big old, you know, pack your bags. We’re going on a guilt trip affair. 

Diane Hullet: And that right there is the kind of humor you bring to the book. We’re going on a guilt trip. So how do you help people move these things? I mean, are there auction houses and, yeah.

So I don’t even know what all, 

Karen Keeran: yeah, so we help clients if they’re in the Atlanta area. If they’re not in the Atlanta area, we help find somebody to help them. But yes, we partner with either, whether they’re traditional estate sale companies, auction houses, liquidators. Companies where you can mail their gold coin [00:19:00] collection off to sell it, right?

So we sort of come, come with a very, not a one size fits all approach at all. Let’s look at everything. Let’s figure out. Is there any value or is this stuff just, is this just goodwill stuff? And you know, then some things that have no value but has that sentimental value that can really create issues for siblings or other family members.

So having those conversations beforehand, being very clear of who actually wants what, who gets, who gets it, when and why, and just leave to less guilt. Bless administrative burden and, and all of those aspects that just leave that flaming dumpster fire. Yeah. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. Oh boy. Oh boy. I, I see why people go into denial and just kind of think, yeah.

I’m just gonna let people figure it out later. As we said, I’ll be dead. I won’t care. Like whatever. I think there are different layers to this though, right? Some of them [00:20:00] are the access to financial places and passwords, things like that. And then some of them are the, the stuff and the choices and what families decide to do about that.

And oh boy. And then you also have a, you know, great experience with this challenge of, you call institutions, you call financial places or real estate places to sort things out. Often there become these loops that you get into where one of the things they say is, may I talk to so and so? And you have to say repeatedly, no, they are deceased.

And then you get sent to a different operator and you go in these kind of incredible loops and, and how painful that is for people. I know one was telling me how incredibly difficult it was to close a credit card and it just shouldn’t have been so difficult. 

Karen Keeran: It shouldn’t be so, so difficult. And then there’s, that comes, that brings into play sort of that, that grief literacy that’s not happening with these companies.

And [00:21:00] I understand their first and foremost goal is, is privacy security. Right. I understand that. But I’ve had so many conversations where I’m calling. On behalf of the family with a family member and they ask to speak with the decedent, and it is, it can send people into a real emotional spiral, and it’s heartbreaking to experience that because that is just not necessary.

Diane Hullet: So, not necessary. Yeah. So that’s part of this whole much broader thing of how do we create a grief literate. Society and grief literate businesses so that there is sensitivity. And in the meanwhile, if you’re someone dealing with an estate and having to make these calls, how do you kind of armor yourself for that and and pull in professionals to help?

Karen Keeran: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that’s so, you know, one thing I’ve done, I can’t even quantify the number of calls that I’ve made on behalf of clients, and now I’ve got it down to a science of what you say, how to ask and how to move the conversation forward to spare them that. But [00:22:00] then also to know the questions to ask to get to the end goal line, right?

That is, that’s what we’re trying to do. But yes, you know, if you have a company, you’re going to have a client, a customer who dies. Like that’s just part of the plan. So why there’s so many companies, it’s like they don’t have a protocol. They don’t, that’s not in their manual that they’re looking at, you know?

Diane Hullet: And especially if it’s a service company, like, yes, things are going to change. 

Karen Keeran: I’m like, why don’t y’all have a survivor relations division or an estate administration office? Like, why don’t y’all have this? You need to. So, you know, of course that’s my, my personal wish, 

Diane Hullet: but I love that soap box. I think that’s so important.

I, I just, I, yes. Just, yes. Yeah. Well, your last chapter in the book is called, well the last chapter is called the Last Chapter. The one right before that is called Your Actionable Next Step. Don’t Be Late to Your Own [00:23:00] Funeral. Talk about that one just a bit. 

Karen Keeran: You know, this was a tongue in cheek reference, so we, my mother was late to everything in her life, and we always joked that she was gonna be late to her own funeral and when she died.

I had a run of show and asked the funeral director to bring her out her earn out 30 minutes late. He looked at me like I was crazy, but I said, Nope, we’re doing this. This is what we have been threatening her whole life and we did it. So with that, I am saying you can be late to your own funeral if your family deems it so, and makes it happen.

But don’t be late to your own funeral by not taking the actionable next steps to choreograph. A well planned exit. 

Diane Hullet: Great. I just love your metaphors. Choreograph a well planned exit. This is such a gift to people and I think, you know, there’s, I think it’s really important to lay out that there’s a huge spectrum, I guess I wanna [00:24:00] call it, right?

Yeah. So there’s everything from plan everything, control everything down to every detail, tell everybody what to say, what to wear. Nobody really wants to do that. I think some people, some people do, but 

Karen Keeran: hey, whatever floats your boat. Right? And then the 

Diane Hullet: other extreme is do nothing. Pretend it’s not gonna happen.

Have nothing in order, have no paperwork. There’s a lot of room in between where I think people can find their own comfort zone. And it isn’t about you know, not giving your grown children some autonomy to help step in and figure this out. But it is giving everyone the information that they need, especially in today’s super complex information world, the information they need to understand what all is there, the big picture of what’s there, so that it’s not a treasure hunt of not fun kind.

Karen Keeran: Yeah. And even if you just do a couple of my suggested action steps in the book, you are not gonna be able to do everything. I understand that. Some [00:25:00] people may, and like you get an a plus plus for that, right? Good for you. But if you do a couple of things right, you are going to leave your family so, so much less anguish than if you do nothing.

So, like you said, there’s that spectrum of, of white and bright black and there are some, there’s a lot of gray in there where having everything super organized and not doing nothing, and there’s that in between, that people can take that action on. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. And something about like finding your gray area, like what’s right for you, what’s right for your family.

And I always say to people, this isn’t one giant come to Jesus conversation. This is multiple conversations. It’s so whether you’re the grown child, the best friend or the person who’s kind of saying, I need to take a look at this. There, there can be dialogue in all those different ways. 

Karen Keeran: Yeah, it’s not a one and done.

This is a, a growing thriving plant that you need to continue to give attention to, and it’s not just a [00:26:00] one and done exercise. So have those conversations, have those family meetings. Preserve your legacy that you have spent your lifetime building. Don’t just leave it to chance and, you know, your family, rolling the dice of figuring out what you wanted.

Diane Hullet: So well said, Rachel and I, I, you know, I would say to listeners, I’d say, read this book. Read another book. Talk to somebody. Take a step, like decide what is an actionable step that you could take today to kind of move this forward. And if I were gonna say 1, 1, 1 actionable step, it would be give somebody the access to your phone and your computer.

Karen Keeran: I mean even then they can sort of, like I said, reverse engineer and figure out a lot of things. So that is, that is one thing. Absolutely. Progress over perfection. Do just a couple of things, and that’s why I wrote this book to sort of that knowledge is power. 

Diane Hullet: Knowledge is power. So well said. Create a [00:27:00] smooth flowing river, not a log jam.

Karen Keeran: Exactly. You do not want a log jam of Cass in your way. 

Diane Hullet: Well, Rachel, I just, I appreciate your sense of humor and your honesty and your experience because, you know, we didn’t go into it. We talked about it a little, but we didn’t go into it deeply. But your own personal experience and then your professional experience really make you a person who is an expert in this arena.

And, you know, you have the, the gravitas to actually. Speak to this, and again, I’ll say what I said at the beginning. One of the things I loved about the book was how much it sprinkled with anecdotes. And you read these anecdotes and they’re heartbreaking. I mean, the one that killed me was the couple who had gotten together.

They hadn’t gotten married yet, they were later in life. They were merging their assets slowly ’cause they didn’t see a need to. And she died. And then, you know, he was left fighting a system and fighting, probate and having access to nothing. And that’s just so heartbreaking. That’s not how any [00:28:00] of us want this to go.

That 

Karen Keeran: is still one of my most heartbreaking client experiences, and I still talk with him. And it, it just, it broke my heart. And if that, that was one thing, don’t leave that they had built this beautiful life together later in life and just full of love and. He lost all of her photos. Other, their photos world travels together and it just, it still breaks my heart.

Diane Hullet: Yes, yes. So there are several like that. And yet, and yet the book isn’t morose. It’s not sad. It’s much more oh gosh, what’s the word When you’re like, it’s like an ESOP’s fable. It’s like a. It’s a cautionary, cautionary tale. That’s what this book is. 

Karen Keeran: But I also did, you know, I wanted to sprinkle in humor ’cause that’s just who I am.

Because if you can’t laugh at life, what else is there? Right? But you know, I also didn’t want people to fall asleep while reading it. Yeah. It’s a book about death, right? So we’ve gotta make it a little enjoyable. 

Diane Hullet: It’s about death and organization. So I always say, you know, [00:29:00] it, it just cracked me up when I found myself being involved in sewing.

And I said, now whoever would’ve thought that I would do something that involved ironing and math, and here I am sowing like a crazy person. So this to me is a little bit like that. Yeah. It’s death and organization. Ugh. Sounds like an awful book. Yeah. It’s a fantastic read. It’s a light read, it’s a informative read and I think it will get you moving.

This would be a fantastic book club read. 

Karen Keeran: It would, yes. I, I’m actually doing a book club read with Steve Gurney of. Aging positive in June and it’s gonna be a LinkedIn live thing. So it’s, yeah, I think this would be a great book club. 

Diane Hullet: Really good. That’s fantastic. Please 

Karen Keeran: Witherspoon, if you’re listening, like Oprah, if you’re listening, come on.

Diane Hullet: Yes, absolutely. Let’s get on those lists. Oh my gosh. Well thank you so much for your time, Rachel, and all your great information and enthusiasm for what is an overwhelming. No, let me rephrase that. What [00:30:00] can be an overwhelming process, but can also be a more organized process and a process that you can feel good about, your family can feel good about, and everybody can move forward and grieve without as much overlay of difficulty as these things can bring 

Karen Keeran: 100%.

That is the gift that I want other people to have. 

Diane Hullet: Well, thanks again, Rachel. How can people find out about your work? 

Karen Keeran: Yeah, so you can buy my book if you’re interested on Amazon books. Barnes and Noble Books a Million. The audio book is coming out soon. I’m currently recording that. There’s an ebook.

If you want to learn more about Afterlight, go to my afterlight.com. Find me on the Instagram, LinkedIn. If you want to learn about becoming an after loss professional, go to after loss pros.com and you can learn about this world and this budding niche industry. 

Diane Hullet: Fantastic. I, I think this is a fantastic [00:31:00] industry.

If I were more organized, I would be doing this. 

Karen Keeran: Well, listen, we call you one of our big fans and our adjacent ancillary professionals, so That’s 

Diane Hullet: right. I’ll be, I’ll be adjacent The conversational adjacent person. Yeah. Well. Fabulous. As always, you can find out more about the work I do at Best Life. Best death.com.

Thanks so much for listening.