Rachel has her MDA – Master of Death Administration! Her personal experience settling estates led her to create a business as an After Loss Professional. So what does that actually mean? In this episode, we talk about “legacy organization” before death, and the management of everything that follows after. What do we need to know now? What blind spots might we be leaving behind? Why do so many of us avoid getting organized in advance? Often, our excuses are rooted in denial, dread – or just plain defiance. Tune in for Rachel’s signature mix of humor and wisdom as we explore what it means to get truly prepared and handle the aftermath. How do you choreograph a well-planned exit?

Home

⁠https://www.instagram.com/myafterlight⁠

⁠https://www.facebook.com/myafterlight⁠

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Diane Hullet, and you’re listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. Today I’ve got someone who is a local Colorado person. Hi, Karen Kiran. Hi. 

Rachel Donnelly: Hi, Diane. Good to see you. 

Diane Hullet: Same. Really good to see you. Karen and I have known each other for several years through the Cine Collective, and Karen’s become just a real advocate of something called a Death cafe, and there’ve been a couple of really great articles about you recently and the Death cafes you’ve been running.

The Death Cafe in Golden Colorado has been meeting for a year. And you facilitate or co-facilitate a couple others. And so I know, you know, you’ve got a lot in your personal story, Karen, that brought you to this work. But let’s also just launch into what is a death cafe, because I think people hear this phrase and.

Really, virtually every community offers them now, and a lot of online people are providing death cafes. But let’s dive in. Welcome and let’s talk about death cafes today. [00:01:00] 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m so excited that the word is getting out. I mean, when I saw the journalists reaching out to me and wanting to find out more, it was like, yes.

This is exactly what I’ve been hoping for since I started. So Death Cafes are an international organization. They’re nonprofit. They started in London, England by a fellow named John Underwood. And he started in 2011 and he based his work on a. Swiss sociologist, interestingly enough, called Bernard Taz.

They always like me to mention his name, so that’s why I have to, even though I’m probably mispronouncing it at the wazoo. Who started something called Cafe Mortal, like back in the early two thousands and wrote about it, and then his wife died, and then just a whole bunch of. Context around Bernard’s work and then Jar John picking up on it and deciding, Hey, I wanna do this.

And Bernard supported him. He reached out to Bernard. Bernard was right there with him supporting him in this effort, [00:02:00] kind of taking the ball, if you will, or the baton from him passing it on to John. So that’s the background of it. They’re now in 93 countries, interestingly enough, just amazing. You know, half of the world now has a death, at least one death cafe in it, which is so cool.

And in, in the US we started about in 20. 2013 is what I recall is, is when it started up in the us. And so that’s kind of the background and history of where death cafes come from. They say on their website I’m not quoting this specifically or exactly, but something about that they were created to bring awareness around our finite lives is how they put it.

I think of that, and I reframe that as the impermanence of our lives coming from my own spiritual kind of path on the eastern path of impermanence. So that’s what drew me to it. And also wanting to, as I explored, which we’ll talk about a [00:03:00] little bit, probably my background got me to wanting to talk about death and dying and all of that.

So would you like to know like what is it like at a death category? Yeah. What’s it 

Diane Hullet: like? Like I still, like where do they meet? How many people come, like, give us a little snapshot. Yeah. I know that they ask that there be a facilitator, like these are a facilitated conversation. Correct. But there’s also no agenda.

So the facilitator doesn’t come with a. Presentation ahead of time. So that I think is a good differentiation from some other programs where you might have someone like myself or you like an educator about the end of life, right. Who presents on a topic in a death cafe. It’s a little more open-ended, so what’s that 

Rachel Donnelly: like?

That’s right. And I do both too. I do both topic-based ones, but not at Death Cafe. That’s in another forum. Death cafes are completely open, they’re free to the public. I wanna emphasize that for everybody out there. They’re totally free. And they’re public. They’re in a community. The whole point is to create [00:04:00] community around this topic of death and dying.

So you don’t, everybody is met. The facilitator is there to help everyone feel safe and in, in, and to enhance privacy, if you will, as best as we can in a public space, I guess is the best way that I can put it. How I put it to my, when I meet with my cafes, I say, Vegas rules apply here. We’re gonna share each other’s first name.

We go around Ron Ro, round Robin, and we share first names and why we decided to come. But that’s it. That’s, we don’t share anything about people’s personal stories or anything like that, so people can feel safe in that environment. So that’s so important. At death. Cafes 

Diane Hullet: so important ’cause there’s this real exchange of ideas and exchange of experiences and I think it’s so powerful to hear from other people and people need to feel like it’s not being blabbed around town as gossip or something, you know?

Rachel Donnelly: Exactly. That being said, my particular approach is I do share, if [00:05:00] anybody wants to sign up, like on my distribution list, I share a summary, which I think is what you’ve seen too. ’cause you’re on my distribution list of topics that come up, but not specific stories and not at ever attributed to any individual person.

So, so people have a sense of what we cover here and I’m sure you’ll wanna hear more about that at some point. I do wanna bring up one point that. Because it’s a big deal at death. Cafes is they want us to be around coffee, tea, and cake. I love that. So you’ll often find us in cafes, which is where my Golden Death Cafe is.

But a lot of people find cafes sometimes are too noisy, things like that. So cafes sometimes are not the best environment, depending on, you know, where you’re landing in that regards or there’s parking issues, et cetera. So they’ll pick libraries, but then most of the facilitators will bring in some coffee, some tea, some [00:06:00] snacks, that kind of thing so people can relax, right?

We always relax a little bit more when we have food near us and drinks. So so it helps lubricate the conversation, if you will, without the liquor. But with some, 

Diane Hullet: some good, some tea and sugar. I love that. No, I think that’s such a great aspect of it. ’cause it really is, it’s sort of like, let’s break bread and chat about this challenging topic sometimes.

Exactly. Perfect. And, and so, and typically for you at the Golden Cafe in Golden Colorado, do people. You know, come week after week, month after month. Do they show up occasionally one time and then not come again? Is it five people or 25 people? 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, that’s a good question. So we average, I would say around 14, 15 people.

I’ve had as low as eight, I think as at one and as many as 21 at another 21 starts to be a little bit. Unwieldy, if you will, because it’s so important, again, that everyone have the opportunity to speak [00:07:00] and you have a mix of people, right? We have the demographics, I would say range in age from, I would say my youngest have been in their high twenties, late twenties timeframe, like post.

College and then well into the eighties. So have the whole gamut there. And depending on which death, death cafe it is, which location I can get a different demographic. But that’s typical is about 14 to 15. And in that age range of maybe, maybe the forties to. Seventies and eighties is probably my average, but we do get some young people, which is really fun and exciting.

Diane Hullet: It adds different perspective, right? I mean, they’ve had different experiences for the most part. Yeah. 

Rachel Donnelly: What’s interesting about the younger ones is they come from, you know an environment in high school not that long ago. And even in colleges where they got taught, like what’s that thing that that the kids have to deal with now?

Active, like [00:08:00] high active active shooter drills. Yeah. Active shooter drills. Yeah, active shooters. Yeah. So, you know, that brings up existential. Questions and you know, fears and all of that. So it’s really interesting when the young folks come for sure. And they bring that perspective and, and we can talk about that some more and they can share.

Diane Hullet: That’s really, I love that. Cross generational sharing I think is really interesting because. It’s, it’s on this one topic of mortality or death or whatever issues people are bringing. But the range of what people bring varies greatly from 25 to 85, like you’re saying. Yes. And so it who shows up really shapes the conversation.

And I think, you know, you, you. I think this role of the host or this role of the facilitator is so important because as you said, they greet people, they provide a structure to it, so this isn’t like show up and be awkward and not know how to manage it, because that’s what the facilitator is doing. It’s helping to say, this is how we’re gonna [00:09:00] proceed.

First, we’re gonna share our name and what brought us here in a very succinct way. Then typically go around and, and say more on those subjects that came up. So there’s you know, for people who are listening who aren’t familiar at all with this, there’s kind of a way that it’s held by the facilitator and yet not directed in some particular direction.

You know, you’re not yeah. Bringing a leaning for a preference in some way. You’re just saying, okay, what’s up for people? And, and I think, you know, people who facilitate death cafes. Are comfortable in this role. So while it may sound kind of strange to someone on the outside, you and I are like, oh, what sounds better than sitting at a cafe with strangers and talking about the end of life.

Bring it on. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, 

Rachel Donnelly: yeah. I love this from my own background. You know, I want to bring, and my own personal mission in my work as a death doula and a death educator is to bring peace. At the end of life and the best way to bring peace in my opinion, is for us to be talking about it before we meet that [00:10:00] timeframe, when things become urgent and scary and all of that.

So to normalize, the conversation of death is just so critical. And when I first started going to my own death cafes, I thought I. This is exactly where I belong. And and then once I launched my business, after my, you know, in my encore career as a death doula educator, this is, I knew this is what I wanted to do was to get these things going.

Diane Hullet: So Great. And you’ve done, so you’ve seeded this in, in Denver in a really big way. Well, tell us, you know, give us a really succinct version of your story. ’cause I know you, you definitely have a unique background that brings you to this work. 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, thanks for asking. It is a long unwinding road, so I will try to keep it as succinct as I can.

Because I was essentially a come full circle is like how I. Think of it, I was born into death and now here I am finally at the end of my life returning to death, and it will ultimately end with my own, hopefully conscious death. That’s my goal is for [00:11:00] me to have peace in life and death, right? But particularly at death because what I was born into was not peaceful at all.

So I say I was born into it because in vitro, even with my mom, my parents were dealing with my sister’s congenital heart condition, and she was nearing death. And they had to make some difficult choices as I was a baby, and made the choice to have her go under what I think was experimental surgery.

This would’ve been the late fifties timeframe to have her have open heart surgery. And she was only six. And the, it turns out the surgery was a success, but she died in recovery ’cause her body went into complete shock and passed away in the recovery room. So here I am not even a year old and we’ve lost our first.

Significant member of our family. And then I, I believe my family, because I know from later on our other losses, they didn’t deal well with grief. So five years later, before I [00:12:00] even entered her first grade, my mom passes away. She got stomach cancer, which I now know energetically through my own spiritual work.

That stomach is where we worry and where we. Hold a lot of our fears and anxieties about things. So that, that was the illness that my mom got. And then my grandmother, my first death doula experience, you know, without us even knowing that name back in those days. Right. But she modeled it our fa and showed how our family dealt well with illness and death.

But then from then on out. Like I remember right after my mom died, we went to the living room and it was total silence. It was just, you know, you just dealt with it in a very intense. Quick way, but there was no tears, there was no crying. It was a very, I can still have it in my mind’s eye, right. How awkward it was and different, 

Diane Hullet: but are you saying So that’s what I was born into.

Are you saying your, your grandmother was with your mother and she was holding space in a way [00:13:00] that was beautiful and on the living room was awkward. Yes. Wow. Interesting. Until the death, you, you had this moment though, of seeing how, how she could be cared for. 

Rachel Donnelly: Yes, absolutely. I certainly saw totally the, the being at home.

You know, I had that very sense, even though it during that time, as you well know, our history of. How we got away from death is rooted in hospitalizations and the medical model of death being the enemy and all of that. My grandmother actually modeled something different. Which was not typical at the time.

You know, most people were being shunted into hospitals and dying there behind closed doors. But my, my grandmother was adamant that my mother was not gonna die anywhere else other than in our home. So that was beautiful for me to see, you know, it’s taken me decades right, to really recognize that and, and understand that gift.[00:14:00] 

That she gave. However, again, the piece about the grieving in the mourning though, that was, you know, down, that was taboo down in our family. Yeah. Lockdown, stoic, you know, the Great Depression generation, the World War II generation, et cetera, just. You just shut that away. You closed that door and that was the place where the door was closed.

Diane Hullet: Yeah, we’re, and we’re so shaped by these early experiences, right? I mean that whole context and contact of what we see or don’t see as kids and what we pick up on with as kids is, is just huge. 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah. And for my brother and I as children, my brother was eight years older than me. He was eight when my, my sister died, 14 when my mom died.

So very, you know, delicate times too, and I was. A baby and six when my sister and mom died. So the family, that wasn’t the end of our losses. So then my [00:15:00] father restarted a new family, dah, dah, and I moved in with my grandparents. As it turned out, they started dying through my teens. So by the time I was 20, I was on my own.

I was completely alone. My grand, my F brother had already moved on in dealing with his grief. He wanted to start a new family when he was a teenager, and he did. So he, I, my grandmother and I had lived alone in our house until she died. I found her on the floor one, one winter morning when I came home from college and she had had a massive stroke and was gone within a week.

And that was before I was 20. That was when I was 19. So, so that’s, that’s why I say I was. Born into death, 

Diane Hullet: born into line, like stayed 

Rachel Donnelly: clear away from it. I, the rest of my life was a far as far as I could get away from it 

Diane Hullet: until this, until this encore career as you said, this, this, yeah. Next stage. So, so you got into [00:16:00] death cafes in part because of what you didn’t have growing up and in part what you thought was possible.

That’s, that’s really incredible. What do you, what sorts of people come to deaf cafes do you find, I mean, is it people like you who’ve had a lot of loss? Is it people who are anticipating a loss or are those quite different? 

Rachel Donnelly: A lot of people are anticipating a loss. I would say. There’s that. Or like I said, with the younger ones, they haven’t necessarily had a loss, but they’ve faced their own existential threats with the, our societal issues in what we’re facing, right?

As a, as a world, as a nation, and as a world in terms of violence. That’s like everywhere anymore it feels like. Right. So they come with that and, and this sense of. Something’s amiss. And yeah, and they want a safe space to, to share and to explore. And that’s what death cafes are all about. [00:17:00] That’s the beauty of the open concept is you’re right, the facilitator comes, we, we, you know, do a, a basic history as I already did with you of death cafes and the fact that we’re open and I’m not here to set the agenda.

And then the conversation just kind of takes off after we introduce ourselves and share usually what comes up for people and, and it, and, and just goes from there. 

Diane Hullet: What are some of the common topics? What are some of the things that come up? 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, the common topics I would say are, how to talk about death.

Like for those that are anticipating a death coming up or they’re getting older, the ones who are older, particularly, how am I gonna talk to my kids about this? How am I gonna talk to my, you know, my significant other, whatever it is. That comes up a lot, how to have conversations and we explore that. And then we also big topic is, how do I prepare [00:18:00] for it? So what kinds of paperwork do I need to, you know, it’s kind of the practical aspects that you and I think of as the practical aspects of death and dying with the paperwork we need to fill out. Who do we need to have in place for us? What matters the most? People think quickly and easily about wills and estate planning.

’cause I don’t know, that’s ingrained in us and our. Families have talked about that easily, but they don’t talk about like medical powers of attorney, financial powers of attorney, living wills. Those are not as well known. So those come up in the conversation about how to address that. The other big topic I realized is, bodies, what to do with my body, which is also one of the practical aspects of, of dying of. And here in Colorado, as you well know, we have lots of different options. So that’s always a robust conversation of the different options that we explore. And some of them unusual because they’re not known in other states [00:19:00] of body.

Composting water cremations, things like that. And so people li like to hear a lot about that ’cause they just don’t know hardly anything about them. 

Diane Hullet: So, fascinating. The other topic that I’m curious if comes up is medical aid and dying because made as it’s called medical aid and dying is legal in Colorado.

And yet I just had a conversation with someone two days ago who is you know, educated works in real estate, knows a lot, called me to get some information for someone in her life, and she was not aware that medical aid and dying is legal in Colorado. Wow. Of course, with lots of restrictions, you know, that you have to be terminally ill and qualify la la la but do people ask questions about that in a death cafe?

Rachel Donnelly: They do. But that’s one of the more uncommon questions, honestly. And maybe it’s because of their ignorance about it and not lack of awareness that it’s available, but it does come up certainly, but can be, you know, maybe every few months it comes up [00:20:00] versus more of a regular topic, I would say. 

Diane Hullet: Interesting.

Are there other unusual topics that you’ve touched on? 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, there are. And there’s sometimes hard topics. They’re sometimes uncomfortable. Honestly, death cafes aren’t totally comfortable, but that’s part of what my role is as a facilitator, is to try to help relieve a little bit of the comfort as much as, or discomfort as much as possible, but.

Death and dying is uncomfortable. Right? And so one of the big topics is suicide. That’s the one that makes everyone a little bit more you know, a little edgy about going into that area and that that can also where it dovetails with medical aid and dying. ’cause a lot of people perceive medical aid and dying as assisted suicide.

But suicide is a mental health. Crisis. And so we kind of talk about that a little bit. People share if they’ve had suicide in the families. And so that’s, that’s the one topic that [00:21:00] is probably the most uncommon, but is also most important in some respects. We also talk about mental health and, and dying.

And and that revolves around the suicide issue too, of. And medical aid and dying, and Canada’s exploring this. Now, this is an interesting topic that’s come up at one of my recent death cafes is that ca, excuse me, Canada’s been exploring can they implement maid for someone who has a mental health condition.

Now in the US we’re nowhere. Nowhere. I don’t even see that ever happening here. But Canada is exploring it and so it’s interesting. I think an important topic for us as a society as a whole to talk about it nonetheless. The other interesting topic on the lighter end of the scale is humor, because. Death tends to be such a heavy topic for all of us in so many ways, and it of course, is serious.

Especially if we [00:22:00] have our, our caregivers. We do have a lot of caregivers who come to death cafes, and it can be so heavy, but we talk about how do we lighten the load sometimes all. When I do the round robin, I’ll say, talk a little bit about what you do to relieve stress. And that’s, that’s actually was the round robin a, a few months ago where we talk, where humor became part of the conversation for that day.

So 

Diane Hullet: That’s so great. It’s so important. I think, you know, back on the suicide piece, I mean, it’s so interesting because it’s, it’s, you know, uncommon on the one hand, and on the other hand, I feel like. Everyone has been impacted by suicide. I, I, if, if you don’t know someone personally in a close circle, you maybe know somebody a little more distant or you are familiar with a community where a suicide happens and the ripple effect of that, that suicide.

And so I do think it’s so important that that topic come out of the shadows and be able to be talked about really openly because it’s so [00:23:00] impactful on those left behind. And. As you said, yeah. Often a mental health issue and made being more of a physical health issue and, you know, I always think made and also voluntarily stopping eating and drinking.

These are, these are choices that people are making at the end of life that have time and space around them. Suicide is, is sometimes impulsive, often done in secret. And they, they, you know, they’re just different and they both. You know, any way that death is hastened has a big impact on people, both the dying person and those who are left behind.

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, it, it’s interesting because, you asked earlier about the, the people who come and how, what’s the mix? So I, I didn’t mention this. About a third of the people are regulars, like, come every month, a third of the people are semi-regular, maybe come once a quarter or once every six months, and then third are probably new every time.

And that one where we talked about [00:24:00] suicide particularly was a lot of new people. So it was really on the minds of the new people and it was quite interesting as that was discussed. Some of my regulars that had never talked about it before started mentioning to your point that they thought aunt so and so, perhaps the accident that had happened with that person, you know, was possibly suicidal, a suicide death.

So it was interesting how that opened a whole new. Acceptance, if you will and reduce the stigma that might’ve been there previously. Not intentionally, of course, but because societal adds that stigma to it that they felt freer to share. That makes sense. 

Diane Hullet: That makes sense. And it’s, you know, it’s worth adding too.

I think there is a difference between a death cafe and a grief group and facilitators like yourself. You know, we’re, we’re well versed in saying to people you know, kind of, this is [00:25:00] what I do, this is how I can support and. You may need additional support and that not a grief, typically, not a grief therapist is facilitating this.

I know there’s one fantastic place in Denver that I’ll just give a shout out to, which is the Heartlight Center. Yes. Heartlight spelled as one word with a capital L in the middle. The Heartlight Center has fantastic grief group. Some of them are online, some of them are specific, like there is a traumatic death grief group.

Because a traumatic death is different than a slower death by disease or frailty. So I think, I think it’s really important for people to just hear that there are resources and that you know, death and grief can be terribly isolating and there are resources out there to help. And as you said, many people who come to a death cafe are actually.

Upstream, you know, they’re looking to get comfortable, they’re looking, looking to dip a toe in the water, if you will. Yeah. And kind of see what there is to say and explore with, with facilitating three different death cafes in, in one kind of [00:26:00] region, city area are there differences between three? 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting different demographics.

I think I mentioned that earlier. Some are drawing more younger, the younger demographics, some, the older demographic, if you will. The Golden Death Cafe seems to be the most mixed of the two where I get people more in the thirties to eighties. My death Cafe in Wheat Ridge, which is actually held at an event center for crematory, the Beat Tree Cremation, which is a local acclamation crematory has an event center site.

They don’t do the cremations there, but it’s a great space and has. Interestingly enough, drawn in a younger demographic to that one. And so we have very different conversations there from that point of view that we already talked about. Compared to my other one at Jefferson Humanists, so the Jefferson Humanists in East Golden, they are sponsoring a death cafe and I’m [00:27:00] co-facilitating that with one of their members and they tend to.

Skew older demographic and they are, they. Come from a point of view of less spirituality that like they’re more stoic from a stoic point of view. And some of ’em are even acknowledged atheists or agnostic point of view. So they’re all about the practical. They just wanna talk, you know, the paperwork and how do I have these conversations and all of that stuff that we talked about earlier.

The, the. Body dispositions, donations. I forgot to mention that. That comes up a lot. How do I donate my body? But my bere one that’s at the cremation place is leans a little bit more spiritual, a little bit more philosophical, if you will. From that point of view. And then the golden one, like I said, seems to be a mix of, a good mix of both.

So, yeah. Oh, 

Diane Hullet: fantastic. Well, I love that, you know, some journalists have reached out and you’ve gotten some [00:28:00] great articles about just what it is in a general way, and then what it is specifically in Golden. It’s so great. How does someone, you know, listeners are coast to coast and worldwide. How do we find a death cafe wherever we may be?

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah. Yeah, I’m happy to promote that for sure. So go to www.deathcafe.com and look up your location. ’cause they have a locator and they’re a volunteer organization. I mentioned they’re nonprofit sometimes. Sadly for us facilitators, we put our posts out there and they’re behind in getting them posted. So it’s may be helpful to even research past death cafes because it’s most likely a past death cafe is gonna continue.

Not every o, not every one of them is monthly like mine. Each of mine are monthly. Some of them are only once every few months. But you can explore that if you’re not finding one specific to your area, because it just could be, it’s not [00:29:00] posted quite yet, even though it might be approaching. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, I’d even say if you’re not finding one specific to your area, start one.

This can be started by lay people, right? Anybody who’s yes know if you’re our former teacher or former. Social worker or something, if you have any kind of skills of bringing people together and knowing how to guide a conversation a bit. Look around your library. I know in Boulder there’s one started by a librarian at one of the branches.

Yes. And you know, fantastic. Yeah. Anywhere we can bring this conversation to the four, I think it, it allows people a venue to, as we said, kind of dip their toe in the water. I think. Yes. Books are a fantastic way in movies and TV shows are sometimes a really good way in, and death cafes are another way to step into this subject matter in a way that allows you to get information that’s a little bit different than what you do if you just think about it in your own head.

There’s something about hearing people’s experiences and, and sharing ideas that [00:30:00] just, I don’t know, it ticks off some boxes that help people think about it in a different way, and that’s, that’s what I love. 

Rachel Donnelly: Yeah, and I just, I just really wanna emphasize to everybody who’s listening that these are safe environments where you can speak your mind and it’s totally private.

I just wanna reemphasize that. And believe it or not, it’s more fun than you think it’s gonna be. They’re not as heavy as people fear when they walk in. They, they actually are smiling usually by the time they leave, even if they came in. A little uncertain as a newbie. The other thing is the community.

I love that death cafe brings community around this topic of death and dying. So if you’re looking for a place to be a little weird because you’ve had these questions on death and dying this is the place to come. It’s not a place for grief. You had mentioned this earlier. I just wanna say that too.

It’s, you can bring your grief. All of us have had loss. And there’s grief in our lives. So it, it is a [00:31:00] safe space for anyone who’s grieving. However, that being said, it’s not a grief support group. So that’s where the Heartlight Center comes in, and that often gets mentioned if that comes up for people, that there’s other paths, if they need that for deep grief like fresh.

Recent grief. Great, great. Special attention. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, great distinction. I, I think there’s something about, this is almost like upstream of the crisis, as you said. It’s, it’s upstream of when you need it. It’s, Hmm. I think my parents are aging, or, Hmm. A friend got a difficult diagnosis or, Hmm. I’m thinking about my own mortality and wanna grapple with it in some way.

This is a fantastic place to do that. Yeah. Well thanks so much for your time, Karen. I just think it’s exciting how, so we’ve talked about how people can find out about deaf cafes. How can people find out about the work you do? 

Rachel Donnelly: Oh, okay. You can find me at my website, which is [00:32:00] www.goldenhearttransitionsingularnosattheend.com.

And as I said, I’m a death doula, death educator. And also I’ve recently certified in grief work as well, so I do one-on-one grief work now. So yeah, just keep looking at ways to support people and that’s. What I’m here to do. This is my, this is where I belong. This is my heart’s work that I’m meant to come back to, like I said, full circle for me.

So, 

Diane Hullet: ah, full circle. Well, I, I love it. I really appreciate all that you do, Karen, and how you articulate what your journey and your life has been that has brought you to talk about this challenging topic with people and that you found this. Public conversation venue known as a death cafe to do so. I just think it’s wonderful.

Thanks, guest. Yeah. Oh, thank 

Rachel Donnelly: you. Thank you. I feel so grateful to be here and, and to do this work, so thank you. 

Diane Hullet: Wonderful. Awesome. [00:33:00] You can find out more about Karen, as she said at her website, and you can find out more about the work I do at Best Life. Best death.com. Thanks so much for listening.