Gabby Jimenez – hospice nurse, doula and social media content creator extraordinaire – explores these questions with me. What do the dying take with them? How do we understand and explore regrets? Why so much guilt? What do grievers take away from the experience of losing their loved ones? Eventually, everyone dies – how can we improve this universal experience in simple yet powerful ways, for all those involved?
⁠www.thehospiceheart.net⁠

⁠https://www.instagram.com/gabrielle.elise.jimenez/⁠

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Transcript:

Diane Hullet: Hi, I’m Diane Hullett and welcome. You’re listening to the Best Life, Best Death podcast. This week I’m talking again with guest Gabrielle Jimenez. Hi Gabby. Hi, nice to be here. So Gabby and I’ve done several podcasts. We are colleagues and friends from across the miles. I live in Colorado and she lives in California, but lots of zoom calls, lots of conversations and lots of mutual support because we’re both just passionate about how education and conversation about the end of life.

makes a huge difference. I mean, let me just go off on a little tangent here. I think it makes a huge difference for individuals. And I also think the real purpose is to, for systems change that we’re hoping to change the way people are cared for at the end of life. So Gabby is a hospice nurse, and you can listen to one of our previous podcasts to find out more about her background.

How’s that sound, Gabby? I don’t know that we need to reintroduce you. What do you think? 

Gabby Jimenez: Oh, no. You know, and I, I want to actually change the word change. I think it’s improve. Yes. We want to improve the way people are cared for. I think it’s worked for you know, for quite some time, the way things have been done, but now just because of all the things that we do and witness, We realized that we could do better.

And so I think our collaborative energy, you know, this group that we have going to Colorado, but just in general, our, our death friends, we all want the same thing, which is to improve the way people are cared for when they die, which would then improve the way people are cared for when they grieve. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah.

Big time. And remarkably even improves the way people live. So there’s this whole kind of gestalt about it when you really face mortality as a part of the package of being alive. It changes things in, in kind of an alchemical way, really for the best is what I’ve seen for the most part. Well, Gabby has this quote that she often says, and I was really struck by it when we were preparing for our podcast.

She often says. The dying don’t take with them who was there at the last breath, they take with them who was there all along. And that really got me thinking, you know, what do the dying take with them? And I thought Gabby would have some interesting insights on that. 

Gabby Jimenez: Yeah, I actually say that a lot because one of the things that people struggle with most is that they have set at the bedside day after day with their loved one oftentimes sleeping there, right, they get up to go to the bathroom or get a cup of coffee or take a shower or, or maybe they leave the facility that they’re Their person is that and they just go home to change or take a shower, or maybe they’re playing just landed or and they’re trying to get to their person, right?

There’s always these sort of just walked out the door just about to walk in when that last breath is taken. And I think that. is a real big struggle for people because in many ways they feel like they didn’t show up or they abandoned them somehow. And I just based on what I’ve witnessed and I’ve, I’ve witnessed, I have been present for at least, if not more, 2000 people who are going through the dying process and have taken their last breath.

So I’ve, I’ve seen a lot. And the thing that I truly believe with every ounce of my being. is that most people do not want an audience. They don’t want to be stared at in general, right? Everyone gathers around the bed and just stares at them. I wouldn’t want that in my big bag of things of how I want. I want you to be there while I’m still present, but please don’t gather around my bed.

I don’t want, I don’t need that. I will know you’re doing it and that’ll drive me crazy. So I think what people need to know is everything you’ve done to this point, Being there for them, maybe you moved them into your home, maybe you visited them every day, maybe you couldn’t be there but you called on the phone and they put the phone up to the ear, or maybe you did FaceTime, or, or maybe, maybe you were just a part of their life every second.

It doesn’t matter what you did that, all of that, that’s what they take with them. And when they take their last breath, it’s like, I believe that that is not the last thing they want you to see. So if they know you’ve just stepped out, they know their window of time is short. So they, in, in my opinion, I believe they chose that moment to do it, because they didn’t want that to be the last thing you see.

So if that’s the truth, Then what they take with them is not who was there at the last breath, but who was there all along, because that’s what they, you know, that’s so important for them. They were cared for, and they know that. And however you played a role in that, That’s what they take with them. And when you tell someone that, when you tell the, the daughter who walked away to get a shower, that her mom didn’t really die alone.

She died with you in her heart and all of your care and all of your support. That’s what she took with her. When you walked away, you gave her permission to let go with peace and grace. And she deserved that. So no, I, I don’t think they take with them who was there at the last breath. I think they take with them who was there all along in their heart, maybe on the phone, maybe at the bedside, whatever that was.

You were there and you need to hold that in your own heart and, and truly believe that. 

Diane Hullet: I think that’s such an incredible reframe for people that we have some, it’s almost like, like Barbara Karns says, we don’t die like we do in the movies. And I almost want to say to people, end of life isn’t at all, none of it.

is like we do in the movies. So there’s some kind of Hollywood idea we have that we’re supposed to be there at the last breath, that there’s, you know, you’re supposed to be holding the hand and looking into the eyes or something. And I think there’s such permission in what you’re saying in terms of be present, be helpful, do what you can do.

It’s not about that last breath and that there is spaciousness in that. So let go of the guilt. Let it, let it be. It happened however it needed to happen. And your guilt might be about something different. So you’ve got to deal with that. Do you see the dying take regrets with them? 

Gabby Jimenez: Yes. Yeah. And that’s actually really painful.

And, and what happens is if they can’t resolve them, and this probably is going a little deep, but I think that It also leads to a little more struggle in their, their last few hours, maybe, because if they truly do have the awareness that I believe they do, that’s probably something they’re pondering. And, and regret is a very big thing.

And Everybody has regret, right? But how you let it go is what’s so important because at that bedside, I guarantee you no one ever says, I’m so glad I worked so hard. You know, I’m so glad that I didn’t spend time with my family. I’m so glad that I didn’t do more with my life. Every person that is about to take their breath says something they wish they could have done more of.

But some people don’t. Some people say, I lived a good life. I’m ready to go. And I think those should be our guides and models, right? The ones who say, look, I did the best I could. I had a gentleman once tell me, you know, I wasn’t perfect. I messed up, but I did the best I could and I’ve made peace with that.

What we have to be able to do is get to a place where we make peace with who we are and the place we are in this life. And just let it go so that we don’t take it with us. If we, if we struggle, if there’s so much unfinished business, as we’re taking our last breath, I think it makes it a little more distressful, a little chaotic, a little less peaceful or graceful.

Diane Hullet: Well, I think if our, if our task as we’re dying is to release our hold on this world, so to speak, then what are the things that are keeping us tied? And some of what keeps us tied is our love and our not, not wanting to be gone and the beauty of the planet and nature and everything that we love here from pets to people to our work.

So there’s those kinds of connections, but we’re also bound here by our regrets and our I feel like those are threads that hold us captured here too and so how to, how to, I sometimes think of it as like untying. It’s like we’re untying all these threads that keep us here. So how might you untie those regrets before it’s the last 

Gabby Jimenez: time?

Great question. You know, I think that That first of all, it’s an age thing for like, if you’re in your 40s. Your regrets usually are wrapped around time. I wish I had more time. They might have had the most beautiful family, right? Everything was in place. They didn’t have a lot of regret. They just wanted more time or, or they just fixed something like a relationship, you know, and, and maybe they were wanting more time with that person, right?

So regret is definitely wrapped around time, especially for people who die young. Then you have the people who are in their nineties. or a hundred. I have a gentleman who’s a hundred years old and he says to me, because I’m done. Why am I not dying? I, I don’t want to sit here like this. His regret isn’t his life that he led or, or didn’t live or the things he did or didn’t say.

His regret is that he’s not dying yet. Like why do I have to keep doing this? So I think regrets can be a wide variety of things and often it’s about time and, and age. We have definitely different regrets at 40 than we do at 95. So I think the best thing, you know, it actually goes to the conversation.

It’s, it’s really about talking about how you feel, being able to let go of some things. You know, I, I do two ritual classes. One is forgiveness. One is grief in my forgiveness class. What I try to teach people how to do is to not just forgive others, but forgive yourselves. Right. If you can forgive yourself for things said or unsaid and make peace with that, you can live a life with less regret.

And, and same with forgiving others. You’re not condoning or giving them permission to do what they did. You’re simply saying, it’s not my weight to carry anymore. I’m done. What we need to do throughout our entire life is stop holding onto the things we cannot change. And if we do that, if we can make peace with that.

then maybe we’ll have less regrets as we die, at any age. But I think it’s very different for someone who is 40, who’s leaving young children and a wife or a husband or, or just a family, and they want more time. We can’t fix that. That’s not something you can let go of, or even make peace with it. And when you take that with you to your deathbed, that pain is, is big.

It’s really big. 

Diane Hullet: What else do you think is helpful for grievers to know, the people who are left behind? I guess I was thinking if I was thinking about like, what did the dying take with them? Then I was thinking, what did the grievers take with them from their experience of someone they love dying? 

Gabby Jimenez: Oh, wow, so much.

And I can only use my own experience. You know, I talk about my brother a lot because I learned so much in those days at his bedside. And his death, I even though I had all the tools in the world, I felt like I had absolutely no idea what to do or say. It’s going on three years now. And I have so much regret.

His death brought up it. All the things I wish I could have done differently. And I’m still trying to go through it all. Like I, I know now that there’s things I could have done differently. I have this imaginary letter I write inside to all the people I never apologize to. What happens to the griever is they take on this.

heavy feeling of I could have done better. And, and for me, it is reminding me to live a more authentic life and know that I’m human and I make mistakes and I’ve made mistakes and I’m doing better now and that’s all I can do. But his death brought to the surface all the things in my life that I wish I could have done differently.

So I think those who are dying, carry so much with them to their deathbed, but those who are saying goodbye to that person are going to be carrying that with them for the rest of their life, albeit differently. You don’t get a blank slate when someone dies. You’re not saying, okay, everything’s forgiven.

It doesn’t work that way. So not only are you grieving the death of someone you love, you’re grieving the life that you had with them, good, bad, or indifferent. And you’re also grieving the past. And you can’t help but keep going back. There’s, like, there’s no stop button. You just keep going back and you play it over and over again in your head.

If I had just said this at that time, if I had just done this, maybe this would have never happened. So wrapped in your sadness for the death of someone you love, Is regret for the things that you could have done differently, but not even just for that person, that death brings up so much from so far long ago.

So yeah, I think that the griever, it’s not just about the death itself. It’s about you and who you are and who you were and, and death to me is like identity theft right when that person’s gone all of a sudden, especially wives or husbands who have to learn how to live their life without their person anymore.

But it happens to sisters and brothers and girlfriends and boyfriends and it happens to co workers and neighbors. We have a physical, emotional, mental reaction when someone dies and it often triggers the way we’ve lived our own life. 

Diane Hullet: So well put. Boy, that’s, that’s just a lot. I appreciate Gabby, the way you, you kind of, you tie in both the theoretical with your own experience, you know, and then these more than 2000 deaths you’ve witnessed and be a been a part of and supported.

That’s just a lot of experience that. has, you know, sheds light on what it means to live with mortality in a really direct way. And I think that people who listen to this podcast, I think are curious about that. You know, they’re often kind of death curious folks, but they’re also a little skittish. And there’s a way that you just, you’re just like all embracing.

You’re like, just take a hard look at this. Cause there’s so much to be learned in it. And I think that is really the fundamentals of what I see you. Both in your professional life and your personal experience with the deaths you’ve had in your life. You’re talking about how do you integrate that change?

How do you live with that change? And what lessons do you take forward from it for how you are embracing this life you have? That was kind of a mouthful, 

Gabby Jimenez: but no, but you said it right. It’s like, how do I, how do we live with ourselves when someone we love has died? How do we make peace with our contribution in their life?

How do we move forward without having survivor’s guilt or just guilt or grief or regret or any of those myriad of feelings that we always have? But how do we live with ourselves moving forward? I think it has to start with. Living with ourselves initially, like making peace with who we are and not trying to live in another lane or compare ourselves to the way others live or breathe or think or do, but to be authentically ourselves and present and and know that our contribution is, is enough, but we doubt ourselves.

We doubt who we are and, and what, what we do and how we matter. I think we have to find a way to get past that and make peace with our contribution. 

Diane Hullet: Well, Gabby, you’ve written nine books. Did we just find the title for your 10th book? I feel like maybe we did. Wow. Oh, well, so not to totally take us in a different direction, but it is kind of a different direction.

You’ve written these incredible books that I think are a huge resource you know, slim volumes, very accessible on very specific topics. And I wonder if you could just tell us about a few of your, I don’t know, with books, it’s hard to say favorites because they’re all your children, right? But I think you’ve got some that are really targeted and really important.

And. They connect us to the conversation we’re having now, but I also think you might be finding your 10th book. 

Gabby Jimenez: Well, I do love to write but you know, it’s interesting. So I’ve written nine one of which I co wrote with two other wonderful doulas, but my very first book, Soft Landing, Was my journey going into nursing school at the age of 50 and changing my whole life and how scary that was.

But it walked me down this new life and lessons that I was learning by being with people who were dying. So my first book is In fact, all of them are really my journey. The first books, Soft Landing, will start there. That was my, how I got started in this and how I changed my life. The Hospice Heart, which I wrote after writing that and, and being with people who are dying and people who are grieving, the Hospice Heart was sort of my childhood and up to adulthood.

Oh my gosh, I was meant to do this work all along. So I share these stories about my life and the things that I did. Making me realize that those were all the, that was me in training, right? The hospice heart is the hospice nurse in training. At the bedside is a bunch of patient stories, great stories, because what I realized is if maybe people read these, they’d be a little less afraid at the bedside.

But also I want you to know what I know and see what I see and, and know why this inspires me so much. And then, so you’ve got those three, which I love. What Would Gabby Say is really because of the Hospice Heart. They send me all these emails, and the very first one was titled, What Would Gabby Say? Right.

And so I, I started writing this column, what would Gabby say? And I would send it out and answer them and put them out on the Facebook page. And then people would say, how do we get the others? So I wrote them a book. I put all of those, what would Gabby says in that? And then, and all four of those have grammar issues.

They’re not lined up properly. I mean, really, if you look at them, they’re very amateur, but the words are sincere and they come from my heart. As I’ve evolved over time and matured and hired someone to help me I wrote my other four, which starts with end of life tips, because what I really wanted was people to have a little book that could show, oh, the death rattle, or oh, medication, or oh, stopping eating and drinking, or these breath changes.

It’s this little, and I like your word, slim. It’s a slim book with a lot of tips. The next one is Dignity Day, which is about medical aid and dying, something I am passionate about, but I also wrote it for not just the person choosing to take these medications or the people who care for them, but even the people who don’t support this, but don’t want to walk away from their loved one.

So it’s really a book about understanding and maybe putting yourself in someone else’s shoes to appreciate the choices they make. Healing a grieving heart. Is my journey with my brother and all the lessons I learned from his death and my grief and my awareness that I had never dealt with all my other grief.

I had never grieved. And so it’s really my journey with tips, hopefully to help others. And then I finished it with the conversation, which really should have been the first book, but I didn’t know it until I finished. And that really just. Kind of wraps the bow around all of them, which is it starts with the conversation.

Diane Hullet: Wow. That’s I had not, I’ve read most of Gabby’s books, but I had not looked at them from that kind of bird’s eye view. And it makes so much sense now about how it was your journey as well. And then it makes sense to me that the conversation is the last one. Because you couldn’t write that one until you lived all the others.

But the conversation is a great one for people to start with. And Dignity Day, you and I did a podcast about that for Best Life, Best Death. And I think that’s such a powerful book because it’s the slimmest, simplest one I’ve seen that It isn’t just advocating one way or the other. It’s really saying, this is what the lived experience is.

And if you don’t agree with your dad’s decision, your step mom’s decision, you can at least put yourself in their shoes. And I think it’s a transformative book for families to read and for couples to read, because it is such an interesting and complex and very personal choice. And how do we get information about it that isn’t just sort of the dry information of you know, a medical website or a doctor’s point of view.

So I think it’s a really important book. And I’m glad you highlighted all those so moving. Well, I know you’re going to keep writing because you’re going to keep writing your blog posts and you’re going to keep doing Facebook and social media and Instagram and all these places. And you can find Gabby at the hospiceheart.

net and all of her books are available. Her blogs are available. She’s got a wonderful newsletter. She teaches incredible classes. These are resources. I mean, I think that what I try to do is be almost like a what’s the word like a purveyor of resources for people. And I try to say, here’s a website that’s got lots of information on it.

And the hospice heart is a really big one. So, yeah. Is there anything you want to 

Gabby Jimenez: add in closing, Gabby? Well, I think that, you know, it brings us back to our event in September. You know, I, I think that, you know, my books are my story, right? It’s, it shows you how I’ve evolved over time, how I’ve maybe grown up and matured, how I’ve found peace in my skin.

But it’s also all the lessons that I have accumulated through death and dying from the people who were dying and those who are preparing to say goodbye. And one of the biggest standouts in all of that is how little people know. Is available to them, or what they can expect or how to prepare and so I love that you and I, and Ray and, and Lisa are going to be doing this because what I want people to know is that this event, they are going to get.

A little bit of all those books, really, and you’ve got the death deck and you’ve got, you know, you’ve got the spiritual part of things and just the whole idea that at the end of the day what matters most is that human beings are cared for well at the end of their life, and that each person who loves and cares for them has the tools they need, and that is what we are going to bring to this.

Diane Hullet: Yeah, super. So this is an event coming in September of 2024 on Friday, the 27th in Boulder and on Saturday, the 28th in Denver. They’re kind of their sister events. Essentially, they’re the same program each day, but Denver and Boulder are far enough apart that I think they attract different people and the four of us are excited about the program.

Possibility of bringing these to other cities as well. So these are intended for lay people. They’re intended for regular folks who want to get more information, more understanding about how to navigate the end of life. And I think it’s going to be very interactive and very engaging. Our goal is to not have it just be you’re talked at for a couple hours.

We really want to say, What does this make you think of? Turn to your neighbor. What, what do you share with that person? How do we do this in community in a better way? So I think it’s exciting. Gabby and I cooked this up. Oh, oh gosh, probably about six months ago. We looked at each other and said, let’s create a presentation.

We’re both so excited. We, we, and then let’s travel all around the world and take it everywhere. Exactly. Cause why not? So, well, I’m excited about September. I’m excited to put these two podcasts up. And I, as always appreciate the conversations with you, Gabby, you bring so much heart and the hospice heart is the perfect, perfect name for your business because it’s what you do.

Thank you, Diane. Once again, I had a great time with you. Thank you. Well, you can find out more about Gabby ag***@th*************.net. You can find out more about the work I do at Best Life. Best death.com. Thanks for listening.