Gabby changed everything up mid-life after taking care of a friend who was dying. She realized that she wanted to make a difference in people’s lives by becoming a hospice nurse and doula, and learning and sharing all she could about death and dying. Having witnessed and supported more than 2,000 people as they die, Gabby brings true “bedside knowledge” to her presentations, books and this conversation. Want to hear a warm-hearted hospice nurse talk about what truly matters? This is it.

⁠www.thehospiceheart.net⁠

⁠https://www.instagram.com/gabrielle.elise.jimenez/⁠

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Transcript:

Diane Hullet: Hi, I’m Diane Hullett and you’re listening to the best life, best death podcast. And today I’ve got a wonderful guest that I’ve had on here before. Welcome to Gabby Jimenez. 

Gabby Jimenez: Hello, Diane. It’s so nice to be back with you again. 

Diane Hullet: Hello, Gabby. I love it. And in the background of Gabby is sitting a beautiful black and white cat up on top of an armoire.

Who is your mascot back there? That’s Zebulon. So beautiful. He’s climbing, he or she? He? Well, he, yes. Is climbing on the top of this beautiful cabinet and it keeps, he keeps coming out the side of Gabby’s head in this wonderful way. So it looks like she has this thought bubble of a cat. 

Gabby Jimenez: I actually always do really.

Diane Hullet: So Gabby is a hospice nurse in California, and we’ve spoken before on a number of topics. And we just felt like it was time for another conversation because, you know, Gabby, you and I are both. about this word conversation and this idea of how conversations change everything. And I woke up this morning thinking that I, I thought, you know, people don’t really realize the importance of conversation and that it changes everything at end of life for the person who’s dying.

And it came to my mind to say almost even more importantly for those who live on behind. So how conversations impact this whole experience around death and dying and end of life. I mean, we just, you and I get so fired up every time we talk to each other about this because it’s so powerful and we’ve seen firsthand what a difference it makes.

Gabby Jimenez: You know, I think in this work, especially we are made very aware of the significance of the things we say. The things we’ve said in the past, the things we didn’t say, and the very last thing we said. And I think we don’t place a high enough regard on our words. Our words can change everything for a person, both in a negative and positive way.

And I honestly believe, and this probably goes way deeper than what we were intending for today, but I think if we paid more attention to the content of what we said and, and shared with other people, I think there would be a little more peace in the world because we would be more inclined not to say certain things and say more of others.

Diane Hullet: I think that’s so incredible. I mean, that’s really about life, right? That’s best life as well as best death. I mean, here we are. Well, tell, tell listeners just a little more about yourself, yourself, Gabby, if they haven’t heard from you before. 

Gabby Jimenez: I am a hospice nurse, which I was never intending to do my whole life.

I started at about 47 and went to be a caregiver because I knew that I wanted to work in this field simply because I was caring for a friend of mine who was dying. I changed everything to do this. And as I was caring for this elderly couple, I, realized that they were not receiving the type of care I felt they deserved.

In many ways, I felt that the elderly were being sort of dismissed, and they weren’t being given a platform to share how they truly feel, and when they did, they were almost, not criticized necessarily, but really not taken very seriously. So I went to school in my fifties to be a hospice nurse specifically because I wanted to work with people at the end of their life and provide them the care and respect they deserve.

So I started out as a hospice nurse. I added to my bag of tools and became an end of life doula, which made me a better hospice nurse. And mostly what I do with both of those combined is I educate as much as possible. I really want to help to improve the way people are cared for when they die and when they grieve.

Because I think if people are cared for better at the end of their life, those at the bedside, I think their grief journey is a little bit gentler because of that. And so we contribute to their grief journey in a really big way. So I’m really focused on end of life care and grief. I’ve written, as you know, nine books.

And I teach a lot of classes. And I speak as often as given the opportunity. And mostly, I think that my purpose It’s to educate and support those who are caring for someone who is dying. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Let’s talk a little about your most recent book is Conversations About Death. Tell us a little about how that book got started and what you put into it.

Gabby Jimenez: So it’s called the conversation, which is a, my intention with it. In fact, it’s funny because I think about how this should have been my first book, right? Because really everything starts with the conversation, that difficult conversation that no one wants to have those last conversations, the, the, how do you want to be cared for conversation?

All of those things get kind of lost in the shuffle. And I realize now just how important that is. I wrote this book, it’s more like a, not a pamphlet, it’s bigger than a pamphlet, not as big as a big book, but it’s enough to help other people get that conversation started, which is what I really wanted from it.

But my intention and sort of motivation with this book was that over the last few years, I have been interviewing, for lack of a better word, people who are dying, asking them, how could we do things differently? What, what did you struggle with with most during your decline and care? What do you wish people would have said or done for you?

And how, how else would you like to be cared for? I mean, I wanted to really get an opinion from people who are actually being cared for and on their own journey of death. And, and. Find some tools that can help other people care for other people. So the conversation is partly handing over the tools to help people have a the difficult conversation while also honoring the person in that bed in a way that they might not have initially.

Diane Hullet: Beautiful. So, You know, I, I feel like when I talk to people, almost everybody likes this in theory, like almost everyone was like, Oh yeah, this is really important. I should talk to my dad or I really need to talk to my sibling or you know, when this is, of course, when we have time, when it’s not a sudden death, but when there’s time to have conversation, people understand.

I understand that it’s important up here in their head, but there’s barriers. What you know, what are some of the barriers that you see to why people don’t dive into this conversation? 

Gabby Jimenez: Well, I mean, it sounds silly, but I honestly believe people think if they talk about it, it’ll happen faster and, and, and that’s not true.

It’s not going to change anything, but they don’t want to talk about it because that makes it more real. It’s not. You know, and, and that causes fear. No one wants to talk about it. And I think until recently, because sort of the, the death conversation has been really elevated over these last few years.

But prior to that, that was not anything you talked about. You did not share those thoughts and wishes with the people you love. And now. Now we’re doing it, but I think people are still a little bit like, yeah, we’ll talk about it later. I have an entire bag filled with all of my wishes. It’s in my fireproof bag on a shelf in my bedroom, and it has all of my wishes.

Everything you could imagine, including my playlist, and And what I want to wear and who I want there and who I don’t want there. I mean, everything’s in this, right? And I remember showing it to my daughter in law and I’m like, okay, here’s the cupboard. She’s like, close the cupboard. Like, I don’t want to see that.

And, and then I keep sending them all notes and pictures of the cupboard. By the way, that’s the cupboard. And they’re just like, oh my gosh, Nana, stop, stop showing us this. And the thing is, is that we’re comfortable. You and I are comfortable because we talk about death every single day. In the first page of the book, I write, I don’t get invited to parties anymore because I always end up talking about death and dying.

It’s so true. It’s like, okay, Gabby, you can come to the party, but please don’t talk about what you do for a living. No one wants to hear that. No one asks me how my day is because I’m like, oh my God, I saw the best death yesterday. You know, and, And it’s true. We talk about it with such comfort. We’re not afraid, but that’s because we’re exposed to it in such a big way.

But the normal average person does not want to talk about death. I’d like to change that. I’d like them to know that talking about it just allows another person to honor their wishes and, and allows you to honor theirs. I, I just. The conversation is actually the difference between pain and peaceful in many ways.

Diane Hullet: Oh, that’s a really beautiful way to put it. The difference between pain and peaceful, the difference between unspoken and spoken. And I think it’s also incredibly vulnerable, right? That’s another piece of it. One, the topic is just off, off limits. And two, it’s incredibly vulnerable, both to say, let’s have this conversation or to be asked to have the conversation.

You have to kind of go to a different place than we normally walk around, boy, what a difference it makes. 

Gabby Jimenez: You know, I, I’ve noticed, especially with the people that are in the bed, the ones that are declining, whether it’s from age or illness, I noticed that they are more worried about burdening their loved ones, right, or overwhelming them.

And so I often think they don’t talk about it because they don’t want to upset anyone. So our role as the people who love somebody who is in that bed who is dying. Is to give them permission and a safe place to say whatever they, they want. And you’ve probably heard me say this a million times, meet them where they are, not where you want them to be.

Yes. We have a reaction. Yes. We have a feeling. Yes. We are going through our own stuff when someone else is dying, but at the end of the day, it is not about us. And if we could meet them where they are, not where we want them to be, maybe that would give them the safe space to say, Hey, by the way, I really don’t want those flowers next to my bed.

They’re giving me a headache. Or could you just ask that not everybody come into this room at once? Or can you just turn the music off? I actually don’t want music, but we don’t know. So when we don’t know, we project all of that onto someone else. What we need to do as a society, as a community, is change the culture so that we can make that conversation more comfortable, so that each person person can say, I need this from you now, I don’t need this, and is there any chance you could do that?

And if they do, And we do it, then we’re honoring their wishes in a beautiful way. And at the end of the day, isn’t that what we really want for everyone? We love 

Diane Hullet: I’m always struck by. You know, I think dying is a process, right? And so there is this process of pulling in and pulling back. And I think about how sometimes there’s those one or two friends who just really want to come towards the end and say their goodbyes.

And it’s like, you missed the window when that was possible. Because now, Now the person is just really pulled in and it’s not, I don’t see it as negative. It’s not you know, oh, they’re withdrawn and they’re not interested. It’s not that they’re in a process of leaving their body and it takes focus on some level.

It takes quiet on some level. Quiet can mean music if that’s what they want, but it, it, it is pulling away from the world as we know it. And those of us who live running around in the world with our to do lists, You know, have to realize that that is not where that person is. So how do we honor that? As you said, how do we honor where they are, not where we want them to be?

And there are windows around that, around which it makes sense for certain people to visit or say their goodbyes. But then everything pulls tighter, everything pulls in. And That is as it should be, and from my point of view, again, whether the person is dying of fragility and old age or a disease process, there is this process of departing from the world, and it involves food and water and people and stimulation and all the things that we, the living, take for granted as being part of us.

Gabby Jimenez: I love that you said that because I feel often, you know, when someone is, for instance, moaning at the end of their life, right there, there may be non responsive now, but they’re sort of moaning or kind of making these sounds. And I can tell that they’re not in physical pain, but I see it as emotional pain.

And people always ask me, what does that mean? And I said, imagine you’re lying in a bed and you know that you’re dying. There is such an awareness from that person. They know they’re dying. If they’re in their 80s or 90s or almost 100, they’ve got a lot of life to relive, and it’s a lot to think about.

You’re having to say goodbye to the people you love. I was just with a family all week last week, every day for a week, and he was younger, he was, you know, my age, and he didn’t want to die. And he didn’t want to leave his family. This was the most loving family I think I’ve ever come across and, and had the honor of being present with, and he didn’t want to die.

And I think part of his struggle, and the reason he held on was because he wasn’t ready yet. And if someone can’t make peace with the end of their own life. I think there’s going to be an emotional reaction to that. And so my, when I see moaning, I will not immediately, Oh, we got to give some morphine because they must be in pain.

I don’t think their pain is always physical. And, and it’s a sound, maybe it’s just that I’ve been around it so much now I can tell, but oftentimes it is exactly what you are saying. It’s them sort of, well, making peace with the fact that they’re dying and this is it. And that’s a lot to process. 

Diane Hullet: It’s a lot to process.

And I think one of the things you and I really promote is having the conversation upstream, having it months before that time when the person is actively dying or even in the last couple of weeks. If you can talk sooner and face this sooner, it changes the whole experience. And most people that I know, when they change that experience to be more transparent and more direct.

Everyone feels better about it. It’s just very different than denial and fear of the word. The D word. 

Gabby Jimenez: So true. I, I feel like one of the things that I see that is most common when someone has died is People who were left behind, the ones who had to say goodbye, almost always wish they said more, wish they could have had that conversation.

It’s those people that are reaching out to me now, how can I plan my end of life now? Wishing that they had done that earlier on, wishing they had said to that person, what do you need? What do you want? I mean, it’s a small comparison, but when my brother was in the ICU, He had no socks on and he’s, he’s very ticklish, right?

And the guy, the doctor came in and he touched his foot and he’s, and my brother’s foot twitched. And the doctor looked at me and said, does your brother have a history of seizures? And I looked at him and I, I actually wanted to use the moron word like, no, you moron, he’s ticklish. But how would they know?

How would they know? I know because I’m ticklish and that’s my brother and even though we hadn’t talked and for however long, the one thing I knew absolutely about him was that he probably wanted socks on his feet so no one would tickle him. And that’s small in comparison to the big things we want our people to know.

But what if we had those conversations? What if, I was able to put a sign on the door that says, please don’t touch his feet, you know, and and it really is about that. It’s about the things we want, the things we need, the things we hope and wish for, and the things that we don’t want. And, and those are very important conversations to have because we cannot predict when someone we love is going to die.

If an illness or age is introduced, that does give us a time frame. But in general, we can’t predict that. So we need those tools way early on. I think it should be a part of the marriage package, right? Okay, you’re now marrying this new person. The first thing you need to do is talk about how you want to die.

Of course, you get that look on your face like, Oh my God, like we just got married. Why would we want to talk about that? But what if something happened? Don’t you want to honor them? But you don’t know what they want. You haven’t had years of experience with each other. You don’t know his, his favorites, his, his dislikes, his likes, his wishes.

So what if we had that conversation? When I teach my hospice masterclass, I created a questionnaire. That I give to everyone in attendance, it’s my in person class I give it to them and I say, this is your homework for today. I want you to sit down. And if you don’t have someone to share it with, do it for yourself.

But I want you and your partner to have this conversation. And it’s all of those questions that I think people should ask. And it’s, yes, of course, there’s the, you know, what are your passwords and where, you know, what do you want, where do you want to be buried? And what do you want done with your pets?

Those are very important things too. But what about your personal stuff? You know, and if you start early on and have that conversation, what a difference that could make. Beautiful. 

Diane Hullet: What are, so, so we’re advocates and hopefully people listening are like, Oh yes, yes, yes, I should, I would like to talk to my beloved partner or my adult children or my, you know, best friend, whatever, whatever the case may be.

What are some tips we can give for how to open this door? 

Gabby Jimenez: So I think the first, well, of course the death deck is a great way to get like a family or a group of people to have that conversation. It’s such a great tool. I think of the five senses. And I write that in my book, I think of the five senses if we just start there right okay so first of all we we know that the hearing is either the last to go or it’s elevated I know it for a fact because my brother when he woke up that one day before he died.

And I had said to him every single day I’m so sorry I’m so sorry I’m so sorry because we had had a disconnect. on the day that he woke up before he died. I said, Ben, Ben, I was here every day. Did you hear me? I was talking to you and I, I was here. I didn’t leave your bedside. And he said, I’m sorry too. Now that is important to me because he died the next day.

Now I’m taking with me that he said he was sorry, but also I know in my heart that he took that with him too. Our words at the bedside are very important. So if we start with the senses, right? Thinking of just hearing, right? Okay, be mindful of that. What are they hearing? What sounds are you bringing in?

What do they want to hear? What can be distracting? Think about the sense of smell. Smells are also heightened at the end of life. I have a very strong sense of smell, and if someone brings in a bouquet of flowers that have stargazer lilies in it, I’m going to get a headache. But no one would know that if I didn’t put that down.

So if we just did the five senses, what do you want to feel? What do you want to hear? What do you want to smell? What do you want to taste? All of those senses, if we just did that, imagine the difference we could make for another person simply by knowing that they don’t want that big heavy blanket on or they don’t want to be on their back.

Or they don’t want to be on their side or they want their favorite jammies. They don’t want a hospital gown, or please make sure that my lips are moist and my hair is brushed and you can do my nails every day. If you want, these are important things, and this is how we can honor someone, because if you’re going to be sitting at their bedside day after day.

You could do something that would honor them, but you have to know what that is first. 

Diane Hullet: So I love the idea that the senses are an entree point to kind of guide us, really. And so if I’m going to sit down with my loved one, how do I go from, you know, we’re chatting about the weather and somehow shift to let’s talk about the senses at the end of life.

Like what are some things and say a tiny bit more about what the death deck is. 

Gabby Jimenez: Okay, so first I will answer your question, which is, and this is always my starter. All right. I love you very much. I know you’re not dying, but if you were, what music would you like to hear? Or do you want me to put on Jeopardy every day at three because you watch it every day at three?

Or do you want the news? Or, you know, what do you want? And so it’s always for me, the playlist, because the playlist is fun. For me, music is a diary of my whole life. I, my whole life has been about music and, and I could, I can go into every year of my life and, and pick songs that, that take me back in time.

So my playlist is about 12 hours long. But when you just start talking about it, not only are you talking about music that your person wants to hear and what you want to hear, but you’re also sharing memories. And you’re going back and you’re taking a walk down memory lane and you’re like thinking, Oh my gosh, I remember this.

And that person might say, I had no idea about that. I had no idea you did that. So it invites conversation, which kind of ties in the death deck. You know, the original death deck is a conversation starter. Right? It’s about drawing a card that asks a question you might not ponder on your own, and it could be something simple like, okay, your last meal.

Do you want it to be tacos, spaghetti, or steak? Right? And then the person’s like, well, I don’t want any of those. I want this. Oh, that sounds good. Okay, I want that too. But that card game makes it more fun, you know, makes that difficult, uncomfortable conversation fun. And then of course they came up with the EOL deck, right?

The end of life deck, which is even better because that asks the questions about end of life. So once you’re comfortable actually having the conversation, all right. Now things are going to get a little tricky here. We’re going to open up this deck, but really in general, that is a really good. or, or use of tools to get that conversation started.

Sometimes people need an invitation. 

Diane Hullet: I think that’s really true. People need an invitation. It’s better if it’s lighter generally. And I think about too, about. You know, knowing your own people, like, what do you, what do you need? You know, what’s the right setting? What’s the right time of day? Who’s going to be present?

Is it just you and your mom? Or is really it your mom and dad and your sister as well? And you’re all going to have this conversation. So. You know, for listeners kind of thinking about what works for your family to kind of gauge this. And, and I think the funny thing is too, is it’s such the elephant in the room.

If someone has a disease process going on, everyone is aware of this. Everyone is aware of it. And it does not have to negate hope. And it does not have to negate, you know, medications and interventions. But even with medications and interventions, eventual death is still in the room. And so it’s on everybody’s minds.

So how to kind of move ourselves through our fear and move ourselves through our sense of, we can’t bring this up. That I think is the real challenge. 

Gabby Jimenez: I think the word we should focus on right here is intervention. If you sit your family down and you say, Okay, we’re going to have a difficult conversation now.

No one is going to want to participate. Someone will probably walk out of the room. And everyone is already anticipated that this is going to be awful. So I don’t think you want to do that. I think it has to be random. You’re in the car, you’re on a road trip, a song comes on, Oh, I love this song. Oh, by the way, I want this to be played at my funeral.

You know, and and really make it a part of the conversation so much so that no one sees it coming and no one shocked when it arrives. 

Diane Hullet: Right. It’s just there. It’s just a thing. And it isn’t a conversation. It’s a series of conversations. Many conversations. 

Gabby Jimenez: Many, many. And if you have the luxury of time, this could be your whole lifetime of conversations.

And when that time does come, you’re, you’re, you can say, you know what? He told me once that he really, really wanted this candle. His favorite candle was this honey, lavender, vanilla. And I really want to get that because I remember him saying that once. Like, that seems so small on the big scale of things, but What a wonderful thing to have that in your memory and to be able to bring that to fruition.

And for that person, even if they’re non responsive, to know that you remembered, like it’s really a full circle process. We’re constantly giving back when we listen to someone and give them the safe space to share what matters to them. And when we honor them in the way that they deserve by Honoring them with the things that they said they needed or wanted or hoped for.

It’s very full circle. And as a, as a community, we can do this, but we have to all come to it with a little less fear. 

Diane Hullet: There’s the word that comes up when you speak, Gabby, is always tenderness. There’s this incredible tenderness that you hold this with. And I think you hold it for the person who is dying and you hold it for the whole, I’ll call it a family system, whether it’s family, friends, whatever it is, and whether that’s one other person or 20 other people, you hold this with such tenderness.

Tenderness, and I think that really comes through in the way you talk about having these conversations and respecting people’s wishes and hearing them and really leaning into listening, which goes back to what we were saying at the beginning that when people are careful with their words and choose their words, what to say and what not to say, it has a big impact on relationships and really bottom line, doesn’t this also All come down to relationships.

I mean, have you ever had anyone at the end of life care about anything besides their beloved people? 

Gabby Jimenez: No, I, I love that. You know, I think about, I mean, if only I knew then what I know now, I find myself saying that a lot. When my dad died, I remember sitting on a bench against a wall and he was about 10.

feet away and I just stared at the bedside and I, I had so many things I wanted to say to him because we had so much disconnect in our life and, and I didn’t, I was mad at him always right because he hurt me in so many ways, but when I sat there all I could see was this man who’s my father is dying.

Well, Now that’s been well over 20 years ago and now just doing the work I do I think of so many ways I could have done that differently and that’s the place that I come from when I’m offering care to my families is the reminder that whatever happens at this moment they will take with them forever and I want to change that.

I don’t want people to feel the way I do when I was at the bedside of both my parents. and my sister. I didn’t say the things. I didn’t, I didn’t even say I love you or I’ll miss you. I didn’t have those tools. And so I think the reason I do the work the way that I do it is because I don’t want anyone to ever feel the way that I did.

I want to change that. And I think we can if we can make the conversation easier to have. 

Diane Hullet: And there you’ve come to just really the ultimate heart of the conversation, right? Because it is partly about respecting people, being with their five senses, and supporting them as they die. But it is also about saying the things that need to be said.

Gabby Jimenez: I think in order to grieve, in a healthy way, we have to do it without regret. If we lived our whole life letting things go, we would have less regret. But of course we don’t do that. We take that to the bedside. Someone we love is dying and all of that comes about. Gosh, I wish I would have done this. I wish I would have said that.

If we lived our life letting things go, we probably wouldn’t have that. But if we say the things now. And that’s the place that I come from. I’m constantly saying it, probably almost so that my family’s just like, Mom, we get it. You love us. But it’s so important for me to know that a second doesn’t go by that they doubt my love for them or my deep appreciation, even for my friends, the ones that have really shown up for me, especially recently.

I don’t want to wait for my bedside or theirs to let them know how important they are in my life. And I think we all could get better at that. It’s, it’s okay to say randomly, you matter to me now. Because all we are absolutely certain of is right this moment right now, right, you and I right here right now we have no idea what’s going to happen after this, and neither you or I have an illness or age to really interfere with that right so anything is possible.

But one thing I know for sure if I was going to die today which by the way universe that is not going to happen. I know my family. feels loved by me. I know my friends know how much they matter to me. And I have learned to let stuff go from my past that leaves me with less regret. I want other people to feel that way too.

I want them to let go of stuff and, and really, really savor the life they have. Right now because nothing is more uncomfortable than watching a person who is dying Wishing they had more time not so much to have more time, but to make up for the time They wasted 

Diane Hullet: Gabby that just makes me have to look at something you posted on Instagram yesterday Let’s see if I can find it really fast You posted one life just one.

Why aren’t we running like we are on fire towards our wildest dreams? 

Gabby Jimenez: Yeah, right. And now I’m, I can’t take credit for that. I found that quote, but think about it. Like. We were given life and we wait until we’re old and dying to appreciate it. This is it. Like, this is all we’ve got. We should have more fun.

We should have the crazy dance parties in our car. We should stay up late giggling. We should do things we’re a little embarrassed about. Maybe nervous about we should say all the things right now and and not waste a moment of it. But we don’t realize that until our time has been cut short. How can we do that better?

Well, honestly, I think we need to start having conversations with the people we love and find out not just what they want when they die. But what they want when they’re alive, like how can I make your life better? I have had enough failed relationships now to know that there are things that I would do differently.

And, and if I should have the, the wonderful gift of another relationship, it will be so healthy because what I’m going to do is say, how can I make you happy? And by the way, This is how you can make me happy. And let’s go do these things together. I would want to have more fun. I would want to be more playful.

Worry less about what people think about me. Not be, I am not a judgmental person, but there’s a lot of judgment in this world. What if we just kind of tabled that for a little while? I think we need to have the conversation early on so we can savor the life that’s been gifted us. 

Diane Hullet: Well, this really brings it full circle, circle, Gabby, because I feel like, you know, we’re talking about conversation at multiple levels, right?

And so we’re talking about the conversation about someone dying so that their wishes can be met. We’re talking about the conversation so that we live without regret. We’re talking about, you know, how to move into our lives with the people we love in the fullest way possible and, and that’s, that’s it.

That’s the conversation. So there we have it. And there we have it. We, we solved 

Gabby Jimenez: the world’s 

Diane Hullet: problems. Gabby and I are going to talk again in a second podcast, but we want to wrap this one up by just saying quickly that we’re having a program in Denver, Colorado, in Boulder, Colorado, coming up in late September, 2024.

And it is about conversations and navigating the end of life. I’m really excited to be having Gabby and our colleagues, Lisa Paul and Ria Mater joining us. And we’re excited about taking this to other cities as well. So if you Hear this and get excited about that, reach out to one of us and we’ll tell you how to bring us to your town.

You can find out more about Gabby and all her books and all the work she does at the hospiceheart. net. You can find out about the work I do at bestlifebestdeath. com. Thanks so much for joining me today, Gabby, and let’s keep going for part two. Thank you for having me again.