Podcast #152 What is “Death over Drafts”? – Stefanie Elkins, Founder of Death over Drafts and Be Present Care

Perhaps you’ve heard of Death Cafes or Death over Dinner… what about Death over Drafts? Grab a brew and listen to this episode in which you’ll hear from founder – and craft beer lover – Stefanie Elkins. What is a Death over Drafts event like to attend? What is the Death Deck and how does it tie in to this kind of program? What’s the purpose of these casual events, and who might attend? I love anything that brews up a conversation about the end of life, so you know I appreciate these nationwide events!

https://www.deathoverdrafts.com

https://www.bepresentcare.com

https://www.facebook.com/stefanie.l.elkins

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC06CiK82pwsVbC2qnzZOVzg/videos

http://linkedin.com/in/stefanieelkins

https://www.instagram.com/bepresentcare/?hl=en

https://www.facebook.com/BePresentCare

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: Hi, I’m Diane Hullett and you’re listening to the best life, best death podcast. And today I’m sitting with a friend from California. This is Stephanie Elkins, the founder of death over drafts. And I’m excited about this because we’re going to talk about what is death over drafts? How do you find one in your area?

And you know, how did you begin to get this idea in the first place, Stephanie? So welcome. 

Stefanie Elkins: Thank you so much. Happy to be here with you. 

Diane Hullet: I know I’m excited. So I mean, there’s a lot of different formats that have popped up over the years for people to come together kind of in a public place and talk about death.

Do you want to lay out any of sort of the history of some of this and then how did death over drafts come into being? 

Stefanie Elkins: Great. Yes. So yeah, there, as we have seen, there’s a lot of opportunities and people wanting to hold space on conversations. And I’ve been working in the community as a family caregiver consultant and end of life doula.

And I was looking at other opportunities, like, what do I want to participate in? Because there’s the death cafe and death over dinner and the dinner party. And I’ve led some of those programs, which are great. But I was recognizing an opportunity of, of more informality, of opportunities for me to kind of bring myself into the mix a little bit more, because working in this space, you want to share resources, you want to educate, you want to be a little more formal, like, not so much no agenda, but like wanting to share a little bit of yourself.

There’s an organization called reimagined that you might know about, which basically really promotes different type of ways of connection, connection through arts and storytelling and education. And they used to have in person events. And in Reimagine 2019, they had it in San Francisco, and I hosted my first edition of Deaf Open Book Drafts, it was called Crafting Your Own Narrative Happy Hour.

One of the reasons why I liked the brewery experience is because I like the warmth of a, a brewery experience. You walk in, it’s casual, it’s informal, it’s accessible. You can go on your own, you can go with a group of people, you can bring your dog. So I’m a fan of the brew experience and I’m also a fan of craft beer.

Diane Hullet: So you were like, how can I combine my passion or conversation about death and a micro brew? 

Stefanie Elkins: Yeah. So that’s really where it started was death over drafts is a community event to brew conversations around the end of life and drafting our own narrative about it. So we did it in person, then COVID happened and we kind of went to an online community.

And for 13 weeks straight during COVID, me and along with some other colleagues in the field would host deck over draft formats. And the one thing we always asked is, you know, what’s your beverage of choice, what your beer of choice is, and then come in and we did that. And so, yeah, we did it. The idea of welcoming people in for these conversations, changing the environment, the casual environment to spark these conversations and make it a little bit more public.

Diane Hullet: Right, right. There’s something public about it. I mean, so if I’m going to show up at one of these events, I hear there’s one in my area and I decide to show up, maybe I bring a friend along. What do I walk into and how, like, how does the conversation get started? 

Stefanie Elkins: So it’s usually at a brewer, you know, breweries, hopefully it’s local, you know, that’s the thing about breweries, there’s, there’s locals.

At every Death Over Drafts, you’re going to be greeted, because the whole idea about welcoming, welcoming people into the space, is you’ll get a crafter, aka host. Either it be me, and now we’ve launched it nationally, so there’s crafters, aka hosts across the country, that are individuals like you and I, that are passionate also about hosting or facilitating conversations on end of life.

So you’re going to be welcomed into this space. There’s going to be a sign in sheet and name tags because I’m a name tag person and I’ll be like, hi, what brought you here today? What brought you to death over drafts here today? 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, today. I mean, I’m guessing it’s more, it’s probably more typically a casual person who’s like, well, I saw this and I was curious and I have had a couple of friends pass away and my grandparents died, but I don’t know.

It’s not really active in my life and I was just curious. 

Stefanie Elkins: But I, I’m looking at it, Diane, you’re, you’re like, Oh, I’m a colleague, I’ve been wanting to meet you for a while, right? The intent is for people that work in the end of life space or are curious about it or volunteer or serve in this certain way, or those that are just curious and have had some other experience.

So death over drafts is a little bit broader in that sense. It welcomes people that are working or serving somewhere in the end of life field, which you know, is. really broad now, and those that are curious. And I also work a lot in the elder care field, so I like to bring in colleagues that work in the elder care field and participate.

So, I’m saying Diane, you came because you felt like you were obligated to come. To support me. 

Diane Hullet: That’s right. I came because my colleague Stephanie was having this awesome event in Denver, and I wanted to see her and my Denver colleagues. Yeah, yeah. 

Stefanie Elkins: And I also brought my partner because this is an event that is not closed or behind the scenes, low threshold.

So I brought my neighbor or my neighbor. partner or somebody else to kind of grab a drink because they like to drink whatever beverage of choice. And so it’s, so you, Oh, great. You brought a friend with you too. You work in the end of life space. There’s not a lot of times you can invite other people to come.

So you’re here. Great. That you supported your friend too. Okay. So, all right. So here’s your name tag. I do have a prompt question I want you to answer and put it on your name tag too, which is, I want you to think of somebody that has passed. And a value of theirs that lives on in you. 

Diane Hullet: Beautiful. 

Stefanie Elkins: So I’m going to go 

Diane Hullet: with my grandmother who died and I would call her practical.

Stefanie Elkins: Practical. Okay. So on your name tag, you, you have your grandma and practical on there. Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing on my name tag. It’s shown up. I have a lot of friends, husband’s names were David, so it’s, it’s multiple Davids with that. There’s a lot of loyalty, 

Diane Hullet: beautiful. So I love that. So right there from the beginning, you’ve taken it from yes, informal, yes, casual, but also deepened.

Right? 

Stefanie Elkins: Yeah. So the conversation could be that it could be like, who would play you in the movie on your life? It could be what, what smell resonates with you? What’s that smell you wanna have? It could be, you know, just as like, what brought you here today? It could be whatever kind of prompt question resonates for you as the crafter.

Diane Hullet: Love it. 

Stefanie Elkins: And so it’s e you know, you can get, as you know, deep or light as you want in those questions. So you already have a way to engage. So you come in, you’re welcomed you, you grab something to drink, there might be food there. So you’re mingling for the first half hour, 45 minutes. There might be three to 15, 20 people there.

It’s not about quantity, it’s about quality of conversation. So great. And then you talk and we come in and then there’s a little welcome introduction. Kind of a component of it about half hour, 45 minutes in, and then we have a signature. We have a signature event or program. So there is some time for a program at a death over dress, but it’s not a workshop.

You’re here. This is casual and fun. There’s going to be some content, but it’s not going to be like, if you’re doing an advanced care planning workshop, this isn’t it. But you, you welcome, you introduce the death over drafts. This is kind of normalizing the conversation around end of life, our signature program at death over drafts, which is the death deck, which I know you’re very familiar with.

And that is a great conversation tool. So we encourage people, we give them a deck of a few cards. And so we bring out the deck deck and there there’ll be maybe five to 10 on our little ring holder. And if it’s one table of. Four to five people or multiple tables, you have a light facilitator at it, and you just kind of encourage people to talk.

There’s an encouragement of it. So that’s a great tool. It’s easy, accessible kind of tool for people to go around and answer those questions. 

Diane Hullet: We probably should say more what the death deck is. 

Stefanie Elkins: So the death deck was a tool that was created around the same time as when the death overdraft started. It was created with the intent to, by Lisa Pong and Lori Lo Cicero, who are co creators of it, with the idea of, even if you know somebody well, the idea of conversations should have happened sooner than later.

So it’s a kitschy game. To promote conversations earlier than later. So that’s why at this bar like environment, their questions, their prompt questions, which you can see, I love prompt questions or kind of getting more into it. So it’s a it’s a very accessible. They also have another deck that’s called the EOL deck, which is to be utilized by other elder care professionals or end of life professionals closer if there is a terminal illness or diagnosis.

 To, to be more intimate and not as kitschy about it, a little 

Diane Hullet: less tongue in cheek. Do you want to read us that Rita says a sample card of the death deck just for fun, because I love these cards are kind of a way because you think, well, how am I going to sit around a table at a brewery and chat with people about this?

But these cards are intended to be conversation starters and we get people kind of chuckling and laughing. 

Stefanie Elkins: Right. So you’re at around you know, and once again, we do have our own space, but it’s like a bench among others. People do walk by. You have to make sure there’s no other sporting events. Last year I did we did have a death over draft.

We had a great space upstairs. It was awesome. It also happened to be March Madness. UCLA was playing in LA. So when we were kind of going around introducing ourselves, they were like, yeah, and we’re like, this isn’t for us. 

Diane Hullet: Wrong night. Wrong night. 

Stefanie Elkins: Yeah. Wrong night. Okay. I think I’m going to need my glasses now.

Where do I have my glasses? Andy, is it appropriate to take photos at a funeral? A sure. Anyone who wants to be captured memory should do so. B pictures are fine, but not of the deceased body or C no, this is not the time for selfies. 

Diane Hullet: Oh, good one. Hmm. I would probably answer that as an A, cause it does seem like an opportunity where families and friends, old friends sometimes have come together, but I’d also be like, and let’s be a little tactful about it.

And that probably depends on the people who are there, but yeah. So you can see everybody might have a different answer. 

Stefanie Elkins: Right. So for you, and it’s always, it’s, it’s interesting because sometimes even us work in the end of life space. Sometimes we don’t sit down and answer it for ourselves. And so that’s what I do for the elder care professionals.

Like I go to a lot of networking meetings, but this is an opportunity for us to sit down and answer the questions for yourself. So at your, what’s to say it for you. Do you, do you think it’s appropriate? I, I think it’s. I think if it was mine, I was okay with people taking pictures and I, an experience I’ve had is that when I’ve, cause you know, I’m an end of life doula as well, that there were certain family members that weren’t comfortable being there because different family dynamics and such.

So I was able to kind of share some of the experience of them, of their family member being honored in a way that felt true. So like I was able to capture it for somebody else that was not able to be there. 

Diane Hullet: Right, right, huge. Want to do one more? 

Stefanie Elkins: Yes. Okay, let me see if I will. Do you believe in miracles?

A, yes, they can happen at any time. B, no, it’s just us to make things happen. Or C, only in rare instances or if I were in peril, then I would believe. 

Diane Hullet: If I were in peril, was that the last part? Oh, interesting question. I’m going to go with, I believe in miracles, but I think it probably depends how you define miracle.

So I’m, I’m a little bit, I’m a skeptic. I’m a skeptic. I do think miraculous things happen. Does that things turn around and are complete miracles? No, I’m too practical, but I do think there are interesting intersections of signs and miracles that I appreciate watching for. 

Stefanie Elkins: Yes. I think that’s that openness of miracles of I’m a reframer.

So miracles is not really a word that resonates to be honest with me. I don’t think anything’s like an accident or people see other individuals or there’s things in unison, the spirit is talking, the kind of connections. So, but like, miracle is not such a word that I’m, I’m utilize. Yet I, life is profound.

And so opportunities of showing up and waking up and seeing and believing. Are there? Yeah. 

Diane Hullet: And that’s sort of a miracle. I love it. And again, for listeners, it’s like, you can see how like these cards are sort of simple and sort of playful. And at the same time, they drop you to this kind of conversation. I remember there was one somewhere in the death deck.

It’s something like, is it okay to flirt at a funeral? You know, and it’s, that led to a really funny conversation with a group one time about people are like, absolutely not. And then people were like, no, I met my partner at a funeral. Yes. 

Stefanie Elkins: Yeah, I’ve heard a couple of those. It’s ’cause you’re, you’re more vulnerable and v being vulnerable sometimes can make you stronger, you know, like really be seen and, and when you’re around that and holding space for others or being there.

Yeah. And, and, and some people, it’s interesting with these com some people are very linear, black and white. But this is there’s some room for movement in this. So sometimes you don’t need a lot of cards to get through it. And then after we do this, we invite people to, you know, do this. We’ve had individuals that have written books come and we have 1 of their pages or prompt questions.

We talk about that. And then we, we take a group picture. If you’re so inclined, we always want to try to have a group picture. And then depending on the flow, cause you really have to gauge the flow, there might be a closing ritual. Depending on the crafter there, you could put resources out. You can create an altar.

You could sell some items that you might have stickers or books that you have. So there’s a little flexibility and. Depending on the style of the crafter or co crafters that are hosting that event or the theme. I sometimes have death of a drafts that are adjacent to other events. So it’s going to be a certain audience that might be attending that certain event.

I’m part of This group called Alka Aging Life Care Association, which are geriatric care managers. So I kind of invited them into these conversations. Some of them had partners. And so it’s interesting. A lot of them work with older adults that’s, they have a different relationship to end of life and, you know, not letting their, you know, having the grief of losing a client they’ve worked with for a while, or how does that look like for you and getting in touch with yourself as you’re working with others.

Diane Hullet: Right. It’s like they’re around elders all the time. They work in sort of the end of life field and yet they don’t always have an opportunity to reflect just on their own experience and their own reactions and their own death. Yeah. 

Stefanie Elkins: Yeah. And death and dying is is something we don’t usually end up talking about.

Like it’s not in a lot of, it’s separated out. And that’s why I’m trying to upstream the end of life conversation in elder care. And that you can do that through advanced care planning, right? Those, those are the tools to kind of have those conversations. So that’s, that’s kind of part of my, my work and service and kind of, once again, changing the environment to talk about death normalizing, not just for people that are.

In, you know, welcomed into your into the death of redress, but also people that are walking by and seeing a sign and or the server that works there and says, what are you guys doing here? And, you know, having the regulars come by and be like. Them saying to you, like, what’s this group about? And they’re not quite understanding and I.

And then I’ve had this with the manager once. say, you know, death over drafts, because I don’t try to hit people over the head with understanding or buying into the concept of this, you know, but usually at breweries, they, they like hosting different events. You know, it’s instead of a trivia night, it’s death over drafts.

So I was talking to this, the manager, and he’s like, I’m not quite understanding what this is, but great. And then he expressed that he had an aunt that just died really quirky, really loved woman, loved her really. And it, it was, everybody was handling it differently. And I asked her name and he shared her name with me.

And so we were talking about that and saying that he, he missed them. And he was able just to kind of start talking to his different cousins about her and sharing some stories. And then he also shared that his dad died a few years ago and that was such a different experience. I go, well, this is it.

Like, this is why we have this event. Thank you for sharing for me and honoring them. 

Diane Hullet: And he was like, didn’t know I was going to do that when I came to work tonight, right? This, you know, Stephanie, I mean, why, how, how did we get so far from death? Why do you think, even though we see it visually in our very visual world on TV and movies and so on, and, and it happens all around us and our families and to friends, why do you think people still have such an arm’s length relationship to death?

Fear. 

Stefanie Elkins: Fear. I think sometimes we can’t really name it like fear and grief. I feel there’s this idea of our relationship with death, you’re right, has really changed and not honor because it’s like do more, live more, keep on going. There is ageism and Defeat and illness and not encouragement. So I think ageism is a really big one about like going closer to the end or the death. 

And I think we need to own it more. And I think that’s why I mean, there’s so many more people in this space to talk and educate and talk about the death experience and how beautiful it was. That it’s not all morbid and hard, but if you have the conversations more, and I think there’s other people down here that you guess have talked about it, the more you talk about it, the less fearful it is.

And you know, if, and some people just haven’t experienced it, so they don’t know, and once you experience something, then it’s easier to talk about. I think our culture is really not open to it. And I think we’re trying to own it again. 

Diane Hullet: Someone told me recently that, that they had heard that the average age that someone experiences a death in our country is like over 40.

Right. And so we just, we aren’t connected to it in the way that people were when they lived in different ways or as they do now in different countries and different experiences, different subcultures, but for kind of the secular middle class and up Americans. It’s, it’s a pretty distant kind of feeling until it’s a crisis.

And then there’s so much confusion and so much chaos. I remember my husband said when his parents died, he said, you know, there’s so much you have to learn around death that you don’t need to know ahead of time and you never need to know again after, but for that year of closing accounts and estate planning stuff.

There’s so much you have to dig into and learn. And it’s just quite a job. And I think the more we can normalize that, and as you said, kind of upstream it, and I love that death over drafts is informal and playful is the wrong word, but casual, you know, that it allows people to come together and talk and I know Lisa, Paul, and I had a death over drafts in summer of 23.

And I think we’re going to do that again this summer in 24. So I’m, I’m excited about this and finding ways to capitalize on the fact that people want to socialize. People want to go out and have a nice micro brew. How can we guide the conversation in a public space with a group of strangers who don’t know each other, just a little bit deeper sometimes, I think it gets a great, great event.

Stefanie Elkins: Yeah. Connections are important and how to get there quick, you know, sometimes it’s around pets. Pet grief is a huge one. Having the conversations then, just allowing it, it is a lot of work, it is overwhelming emotionally and physically, financially, legal, like, in so many ways dealing with, with death and, and we don’t talk about it and it doesn’t, necessarily make it easier to do all the paperwork, to wait online for those phone calls, to get the death certificate, dealing with siblings and, and the, the, the, if it’s parents, the well one, what’s to do next, yet if you start, if you have a little more communication, it can be a, or having others to talk to about it can make it less traumatic.

Diane Hullet: Yeah. It’s like, how do we, how do we prepare the soil? You know, we know that these seeds are going to come in. How do we kind of prep the soil so that when it starts happening to us, because we hit a certain age or because events just occur in our lives, how can we be better prepared? We’ll never be totally prepared.

I think these, whether it’s a sudden death or an expected death, they kind of bowl us over. I think But I think we can be better prepared. And I’m always surprised when people don’t want to lean into that. But, you know, I’m kind of practical. Like I said, get it from grandma. Practical. Go 

Stefanie Elkins: grandma. Thank you.

Grandma needs to be better planners than others. Like I have most of my other friends are better planners than me. It’s like, you know, I, I’m still working on this. I actually just talked to my, my lawyer that I’ve worked with in terms of getting my advanced care directive done, and I’m like, Oh, yes, it’s definitely time to update that those are wrong addresses.

I need to update those addresses. 

Diane Hullet: I know it’s really something I had a great conversation with Helen Bauer of the heart of hospice, and she said, Okay, I’m going to just admit it right here. My advanced care planning is not done. She said, every time I go to do it, I just kind of like, draw blank and can’t do it.

So, I mean, even people who work in this field have a hard time following through and doing. Paperwork piece that we know we need to do, but to somehow, I don’t know, you know, it’s funny. Call me crazy. I, I’m, I’m that person who like, I actually kind of find it magical when I touch those moments where I, you know, you have that kind of moment where you’re like aware of your mortality and you’re like, Oh, okay.

I really am going to die one day. Like I find those moments kind of magical and illuminating and it gives me greater appreciation for the body and nature and the life I lead. And I don’t know, it’s just a different experience than people who are like, Oh, no, no, no, no. I’m alive. I’m alive. I don’t want to go there at all.

I don’t know. Call me crazy. I think 

Stefanie Elkins: it’s, I think it’s the idea of like going back to the mindfulness that like, what brings you joy? Or what is your purpose? And I sometimes we are just so busy. We don’t spend time on that. You know, where do you feel most alive, right? Or who do you feel most alive with?

You know, we don’t live in that space because we’re just a lot of times we’re doing not being. And, and I think that’s one of the things that we love about being working in this space is because we’re focusing more on the being. Yeah, 

Diane Hullet: there’s a huge amount of when you drop into being with a client, like that’s all you’re doing right in that moment and appreciating whatever they’re bringing to the moment.

And standing with death, looking over someone’s shoulder is just a more, it’s just a very intense place to stand and very alive. If you can hang out with the discomfort of it. So have a beer in your hand that might help, right? 

Stefanie Elkins: Cheers. Yeah. Do you have a, do you have a beer of choice? Or are you not a, what’s your, what would be your beverage at your, at your celebration of life?

Like what beverage would it be? Gosh, 

Diane Hullet: it’s a terrible question for me. I’m not a huge beer drinker. Oh, I’d probably pick some like innocuous pale ale. So I’m, I’m not a very sophisticated 

Stefanie Elkins: beer palate. Beverage of choice. Is it water? I mean, we always need to have a glass of water. Would it be sparkly? Would it be a bubbly water?

Diane Hullet: Definitely I’d have water available. And I wouldn’t be opposed to kind of a little beer and wine and soft drinks kind of a mix. I’m kind of like everybody can do their thing, probably wouldn’t have hard liquor, but I’m fine with everybody at the wake kind of having a little take the edge off glass of something and relax.

That’s fine. If that’s your thing. 

Stefanie Elkins: Casual, practical, like a little bit for everybody, not too over the top. But something for everybody. 

Diane Hullet: I’m going to throw a party when I’m dead, just the way I live, right? How we live is how we die. How we die is how we live. How we throw a party, like little something for everybody.

That sounds great. 

Stefanie Elkins: I feel for you, everybody’s gonna be comfortable. Everybody’s gonna feel comfortable and safe. 

Diane Hullet: That’s right. That would, that’d be perfect. That’d be the perfect wake. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Stephanie. Anything else you want to add about death of her drafts? 

Stefanie Elkins: If you want to find out more about upcoming events, or learning how to be a crafter aka host, you can go to deathoverdrafts.

com and so I think that’s really it. 

Diane Hullet: Awesome. Watch for one coming in your area and check it out. When you find one, actually, I mean, there are a lot of people who listen to this podcast who might reach out and want to be a host. I would encourage you if you have any inclination and you’re like, this sounds amazing, but there’s not one in my area.

Set one up. Yeah, you can make this happen. So, well, thanks for coming. Thanks so much. And as always, you can find out more about the work I do at Best Life. Best death.com. Thanks again, Stephanie. Cheers. Cheers.