Jennifer Carroll shares tips and thoughts on how to bring an obituary to life. What are the personal touches that take it beyond a short, basic announcement? How do you capture details that illustrate the character of the person and their passions and quirks? How do we find the “extraordinary moments of ordinary lives”? Jennifer recommends that we “start early, enjoy the process, gather voices and stories, identify themes, and seek out defining moments.” Overall in this conversation we are exploring: What makes a fitting tribute to those we love?

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: Hi, I’m Diane Hullett and welcome to the Best Life, Best Death Podcast. Today I’m so excited because I’ve got a friend and also someone that I’ve had on here before. Hi Jennifer Carroll. Hello, Diane. How are you? Nice to meet you. Excellent. I’m, I’m really, really just excited about this one because I think we’re going to talk about something that a lot of people want more information on and it’s a category of things that has changed.

So today we’ll be talking about. But first, I just want to note, you know, Jennifer is an author and a writer and a writing coach. And she was telling me before we hit record that, you know, she just likes helping people publish their stories. And so she and I first talked, I looked it up and it’s way back on podcast number 12, which was really a long time ago now.

And we recorded a podcast called, What does it mean to write your own story? And I think that was a really powerful introduction to this kind of topic of writing your own story, capturing your memories, sharing your legacy in pictures and in words, and then also Jennifer was a big piece of my interviewing Sharon Emery, and that was podcast best life, best death podcast number 91 called it’s hard being you a primer on being happy anyway.

That’s a book that Jennifer helped Sharon to find her voice and to write. And so Jennifer has kind of been in the back of my podcast almost since the beginning. And I just, I just love that. So welcome again, Jennifer. 

Jennifer Carroll: Did 

Diane Hullet: I just call you Carol? I hope I didn’t. No, no, but it happens all the time. Two first names is fine.

It’s a thing. So let’s just launch in what is an obituary? 

Jennifer Carroll: Well, that’s actually, that’s a I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that because over time, I’ve switched that language in my own head to a life tribute, or a life story. But, but traditionally, yes, it started out, and this is, I also have a background in print newspapers.

And so It’s very common for a lot of newspapers then to have what they called free obituaries and the funeral home had forms and those forms were pretty straightforward. And they, they started with survivors cause of death, the kinds of things that you’re probably familiar with. And then if there was any room.

Oh, let’s, here’s a little bit more about this person. But they were usually done quickly without a lot of thinking or coaching. And I, when I started out and I was a rookie, the job that went to me was to work Saturday nights and Sunday nights. And part of that was the funeral home would actually, Do what we called call in the obituaries, and I would listen to them and think after you get through the cause of death and all of the survivors, there’s some really interesting stories in this newspaper tomorrow that sometimes are overlooked, and it just caught my interest way back then, and so fortunately, that all changed over time.

The obituaries became what it. The business called paid where you would pay per word. And so people were much more aware of what they were doing. The advantage with the internet was that then that also became a link and that anybody then could access that obituary which was really monumental and being able to share people’s stories in a much broader way than the print daily, although that was important too.

But because of the way that it started, a lot of people in their mind. Would start out with survivors and not really thinking about the whole picture, the whole portrait of what somebody’s life can be and was. So there’s many more services now that say, yeah, how do you get started early? What should you be thinking about in trying to capture people you love?

And, and who can do that and what are some ways to get started so that you’re ready. 

Diane Hullet: So interesting. So like the history is that whatever typically family member came to the funeral home, they’re the ones who filled out this form that then was literally picked up by phone and called in. So that’s where we get this idea that often it’s a grown child or the surviving spouse who often writes the obituary.

But as you said, it’s changed so much. And so now. Is it, is an obituary still typically through the funeral home? Like I definitely see these online pieces that come forward after a funeral. It can be. 

Jennifer Carroll: And I actually looked this up because. A lot of the services that provide this to the bereaved or, or loved ones also have writing coaching now.

They have, and one would be Legacy. com, and it’s, and that’s one of the most common. And Le, and Legacy. com is in hundreds and hundreds of newspapers and all sorts of publications nationwide. And they also have services, like, as I said, that will help you compile an obituary. Lots of tips, writers they’re putting their heart and soul into it too, so that they, they have something that’s meaningful to people.

Diane Hullet: It’s longer and fuller, isn’t it? It really is more like capturing a whole life narrative rather than just the basics. And, 

Jennifer Carroll: or, somebody’s chief interests or passions in their life. It can be as anecdotes that, that tell the story. It can be instead of saying they like music, what kind of music. One example, and I think I, I talked about this the first time because it really, this was a personal experience, but this was a relative and I was helping write the obituary and I asked, What kind of music?

And, and it was, oh the wall. Oh, hello walls. And at that time, I looked it up and I hadn’t heard of that song, but I included that, that this was a favorite song of this person. And then I realized as we were waiting for the funeral to start, they were playing hello walls. And I also said that this person liked dad jokes, which was a thing at that point.

And So I, the person who was delivering the memorial looked around and said, I hear that he told really bad dad jokes. And all of a sudden everybody started laughing and it became a whole different kind of tribute. And the, the funny parts of this person, the serious parts of this person. And, you know, you’re just trying to open up a little bit more that tells the whole story of who they were and, and their legacy, 

Diane Hullet: all they were on earth.

What, so Legacy. com is one place. What are some others? Legacy. com Well, first here’s a, a 

Jennifer Carroll: few newer options for creating the life tributes. Tributize it allows users to create online tributes and memorials. It offers features such as photo galleries and guest books, the ability to customize with tributes and stories.

So people can add to it and everything else that can be accomplished through some of the other services. 

Diane Hullet: Well, that one is tributize. com. T R I B U. T I Z E dot com. 

Jennifer Carroll: Yes. And I can send you links to these so that anybody can look later and, and have some if they, if they’re interested in exploring some of these beyond the dash emphasizes celebrating life’s beyond the dates on a tombstone.

So it’s really what we’re talking about. It’s other than. The very important aspects, which are who are their children, who are the people they leave behind, when were they born, and when did they die, and anything else. It, you create memorialized pages with stories, photos, and videos that can honor people.

And so they’re just trying to give context, visuals, some sense of what the, the, these people were all about. 

Diane Hullet: I love it. And that’s beyond the dash. com. And again, we’ll include these in the show notes, but you know, it’s sort of funny as a language person, Jennifer, don’t you want to kind of change that?

It’s not really beyond the dash. It’s more like including the dash or like what’s in the dash or something. It’s not beyond it’s actually the dash itself. Maybe beyond the dash can change their name to the dash itself. 

Jennifer Carroll: And the third one that I have is lasting memories. And that provides tools again for creating online memorials.

So that’s, that’s just become more and more popular. You have, okay, here’s, here’s what a starter, if you will. And let everybody else contribute to the story. And some people feel more comfortable with words, and some people have great photos that they want to put up, but then that becomes a lasting page and a living page that you can continue to contribute to.

Diane Hullet: It’s so interesting. Like, a part of me, I don’t know. I, I love that these are more extensive and then maybe it’s just my age, but it also seems sort of overwhelming, you know, to think that people would keep adding things to it. You’d have to keep going back and looking at it. Ah, I don’t know. I sort of like the hard copy guest book that everybody signed and, you know, you’ve got the names and there it is, write the thank you cards.

But I, I think it’s wonderful that there are these new opportunities. And then, I don’t know, I also find them a little overwhelming. 

Jennifer Carroll: So it’s a very good point. One of the things that I like to say is don’t let technology get in the way. This isn’t for everybody. And there’s no right or wrong way to celebrate the life of a person that you know and you’re very close to or a loved one.

And so it’s basically focusing on the essence, if you will, of who that person was. And which, which can be done. And just a few paragraphs. And some people prefer that. They, they don’t want to go on and on. And I have talked to people who just don’t see any point. They don’t even read it because they think, is that all ego.

I, I would say, what do you want your grandchildren to know about you? If you would rather just have A few paragraphs. It’s easy for you to say that now. But what about your heirs and the people beyond? What can you capture easily for them? And one of the things that you had asked as we talked about our discussion today was, are there examples of Of the kinds of things that you can include that really help tell who these people are.

So I, I just got two because again, this is all so individual. And then I thought what might help is just to go through a bit of a guide on how do you even learn all this. Let’s say it’s your father, your uncle, your cousin when, when do you get these stories if they haven’t been told to you before? And so I have some suggestions for doing that too.

Terrific. Which is kind of like, 

Diane Hullet: how do you get started? Like, how do you even get started? You’ve been tasked with writing something for this person. And I love Jennifer, how, like, you’re really talking, you’re not talking so much about a story, Straight obituary that just says the facts. You’re really saying, how does this become a legacy piece?

How does this become something, whether it’s a page or two, or whether it’s a bit of a longer piece, how does this become a lasting thing to share your, your values and the stories of your life? And I love what you said about some anecdotes that may even capture it. So yeah, tell us more about these components and how to get started.

And I love that you’re going to share examples. 

Jennifer Carroll: All right, thank you so much because I know sharing a life story can be daunting and so, so just to reinforce what you said, here’s, here’s a couple of ways that people, I did it. I thought extremely well. The one, the first one is a man who was 96 years old had a pretty colorful life and he was a skier and so was his wife and they lived in New England.

And obviously. He had told a lot of stories, because I think that this probably was a pretty good family story. And so we all have them, it’s good to write them down or some, or, or, or remember them, because this, this was just in the middle of a fairly long obituary on this man. And, and it just told me everything.

On April 2nd, 1948, Jane and Fred Hartwell, Sr. were married at the top of a mountain in New England. The attire was ski clothing, and Jane and Fred knitted each other the ski sweaters that became their wedding apparel. In retrospect, Fred admitted getting some help from the women who frequented the local diner that they enjoyed too.

Jane got ready in a local cabin, which still stands on the top of that mountain, and a friend gave her away as they walked under an arch of ski poles while guests hummed the wedding march. The plan was for the entire wedding party to ski down that mountain, but rain prevented that. Jane and Fred celebrated their passion for skiing with a champagne toast.

During the first snowfall each year. 

Diane Hullet: Fabulous. Really sets the scene, doesn’t it? It does. The arch, the ski poles. That’s great. And so unconventional for 1948. Exactly. 

Jennifer Carroll: Exactly. And so it’s, it’s that kind of story that tells much more than you would ever have dreamed of who these people were and that Jane was active and, and they were funny and they were fun loving people and that that never changed in their lives.

Thank you. 

Diane Hullet: Beautiful. 

Jennifer Carroll: The, the second one, I’m going to give you a list of different books that are, if, if you’re, anybody is interested in reading colorful obituary stories some trendsetters like the New York Times, I’m going to get into that in a minute. This book is called Obit. Inspiring stories of ordinary people who led extraordinary lives.

And it’s, it’s terrifically fun to read. The author is Jim Sheeler. He is, he won a Pulitzer Prize for feature writing and you can see it in what he compiled. And it’s, I found it delightful to read through just because, again these, everybody came alive in their own way, in different ways. And this is a few, Paragraphs about a musician and it’s titled the magician who saved his best trick for last Robert E Schmitt the advertisement shout with vaudevillian nerve from yellowed newspapers and posters in words That still sound like Bob Schmidt ladies and gentlemen boys and girls.

They Blair See the 20th century Aladdin, a man of magic and mystery. In the sepia toned promotional photos, a dapper man in a tuxedo stands beside a levitating woman. In another photo, he lies in a box, changed and possibly tight. Can he escape? See this and many other tricks. Inside Schmidt’s Denver home, nearly nine decades of magic pours through the living room.

The guillotine, the escape proof box. The black boxed hat, no, the black top hat that birthed thousands of rabbits. The one that so many ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, truly believed held a special sort of magic. And the Schmidt family searched through the boxes of tricks and scrapbooks inside this old magician’s house.

They remember the axe, they marvel that, and then they find a relic from the 1930s they’d never seen before. A sign the size of a card table. The biggest advertisement of them all. My brother and I found it and we had the same idea, said his son Kim Schmidt. At first we thought, is this appropriate? And then we agreed dad would love it.

So at Bob Schmidt’s funeral, his family placed the billboard where they knew it belonged, right next to the coffin. Chained, shackled, and handcuffed, the sign read, locked in a mailbag, and securely nailed and roped into this box, Professor Schmidt emerges instantaneously and free of all his bonds. 

Diane Hullet: Fabulous.

What a great, what a great sign to be next to a coffin, right? 

Jennifer Carroll: Yes. 

Diane Hullet: And also it 

Jennifer Carroll: says. When you’re actually going through a loved one’s belongings, and which can be very sad, there are treasures, and that’s what happened with this family. And so sometimes it doesn’t all have to be written overnight. You can, you can go, you can think if you haven’t had a time to prepare in advance.

Diane Hullet: Yeah, yeah, you can craft something. You’re looking to craft a story, say, say more than about what, you know, what are some of these components that go into a meaningful obituary and how to get started. You’re saying partly you get started with anecdotes. Maybe you get started ahead of time. Maybe you get started because of something you find.

How do you get started and how do you keep it going? I know 

Jennifer Carroll: this personally because of. My advice usually is to start as early as you can. It doesn’t have to be even related to the obituary, especially if we’re an aging parent who wants nothing more than for you to sit down and maybe open up a photo album.

And start saying, tell me more about this. And that starts what can become a very comfortable series of conversations. Or even encouraging them, hey, dad, you always talked about this experience. Can you just share a little of it for me? And then the other one I mentioned, what do you want your grandchildren to know about you?

And, and then pause and give time for response. Because often, It comes out in really interesting ways that you never expected. And so, if especially you’re, you’re with somebody who doesn’t feel comfortable in opening up, then think about how, how you can help that happen. And maybe pointing to a picture of them when they were younger with their family.

Where were you? I, I talked to one person who just said to her mother one day who always let her spouse do the talking because he was Irish and prone to that. And she wasn’t more of an introvert. What do you want your grandchildren to know about you? And she just said, did it come from the South? And now I live in the North, but, but my roots are in Kentucky.

And then she started talking about the Kentucky landscape and how important it was to her. It was really touching. And they never expected that. And if they hadn’t asked, they probably wouldn’t have known to include that in her life story. And so. Collecting anecdotes, talking early usually every family has one person who enjoys doing this more than others, I have found.

And and so, but it doesn’t always have to fall on one person. But the nice thing about getting started early is that as you start gathering the pieces that form a, a fitting life tribute, You can share it with one another, especially if you have siblings, and the earlier you do that, the more voices you’re going to have and you’re going to tell a more well rounded story than somebody up at midnight grieving, which is also a key point that I like to remind people.

If you are under pressure of a deadline and your, and your loss is so close to your heart, it’s very hard to stand back and think about a life. If you help think about it early and you share it among yourselves and you have a pretty good idea of what you want it to say, it makes a huge difference. And also helps you avoid any traps later, because as we know, I have several siblings myself, you know, everybody has an opinion about what is the right thing.

Easier to hear that six months in the, you know, before you’re actually faced with it than the day before you want to turn it in. So again, Think about it in a harmonious way, in a good way, in a colorful way. See if you have photos, all of the kinds, and you want it to be accurate. So all of those things that help when you have time.

You can create a timeline, which also helps what, what you want to focus on. I had An example of a friend’s father who delivered a lot of babies, and that obituary, she sent it to me to read as a favor, started with the survivors, which is fine, and fairly far down, it turns out that he was known for his love of delivering babies.

And I thought, I would have loved to start with, he was a baby doctor. And that just, that changes it, that’s a, you’re starting to tell a story in a different way, and something that people can enjoy. So, the timeline I think helps, because you can even say, let’s get rid of all that, the earlier’s don’t matter as much, but when she was really coming into her own, was when she got her first job doing whatever it was.

And that will also help you structure it in your own mind. So you’re not just dumping everything, you know, you’re, you’re really focusing on what matters. And, and so the next point reinforces that identifying themes, highlights stories that they had and would want to be in there. Significant achievements are important defining moments.

As I said the, the wedding on the top of the mountain with ski poles. So all of these can help I, I personally also, and I, I talked about this a little, but I think especially if you have a relative who is suddenly has a, a life threatening illness, what a beautiful way to help. To spend time with that person, and whether it’s by phone or, or you can visit, and then you can say in little pieces, you know, here I am, and I really want to hear about X.

I, I remember used to talk about this, and the more you establish a comfort with that, the more you’ll find the person does want to talk. And it’s really open to that. So other things are the formats. We, we, you mentioned this. Do you want it just to be a straight up text narrative that’s short and sweet?

That’s fine. Would you like to add video? Would you like to add more photos? Would you like to tell jokes in the middle of it? That’s all up to you. And it’s really personal preference. And It goes back to start and record and, and be ready. The personal touches, the, anything to make the story more intimate, I think is good.

 Details that illustrate the character of the person and their passions and their quirks. And then once you have a draft, don’t be afraid of tossing some of it out too. And I’ve seen people do that and that’s fine. Sometimes it helps. It just depends on. What you’re more comfortable with, writing it all out and then saying, I don’t know if we need all of this, but this is my favorite.

Diane Hullet: That’s actually, that’s good advice to remember. You can get it all down. You could have a longer version and a shorter public version. Maybe there’s a long version for family. I really, I love the way you’ve kind of, you know, changed it from the official title is I guess still obituary, but you’re really saying, Oh, What’s a fitting tribute and, and that fitting is such a good word because what’s a fitting tribute for one person might be very different than another person.

So this idea that we’re creating something and I find to these, these legacy write ups that go online are also staying on there forever. Right. I mean, I just heard a story literally this morning of a friend who was trying to track down an old, old friend of hers that she’d lost touch with in her twenties.

And she said, you know, how I finally tracked her down. I Googled her last name again, and her father had now died. So the last name came up in his obituary and in there was her second name. Sister’s name. Aha. My friend said, I looked up her sister because the woman’s name wasn’t findable, but the sister, she immediately found her.

And there was a phone number somewhere online digging around. So she called the sister and said, Hey, if you’re the sister of this woman, will you please tell her I’m trying to get in touch with her? And so this connection was made for the next generation down through someone’s obituary. And so. These live on.

These live on in a way that they did not used to when it was simply a newspaper clipping. So there’s something about that, about thinking about what is this fitting life tribute that will be, as we know, the internet keeps things forever. So it’ll be on there for a while, right? 

Jennifer Carroll: Yes. And, and in some cases, this obituary that now can be found online fairly easily.

To your point, if you have a name or you have a place that you know that this person lived and died you can then use that as a way to explore ancestry find out so much more about family history of people. And, and also you can help future generations know more about who their heirs were.

And, and so the more complete of a story you have, then that gives them a very good idea of their own family history. 

Diane Hullet: You know, what about, we, we’ve talked a lot, we keep talking about like, you know, family and grown children kind of writing these things. But also there are a lot of people solo aging and there’s a lot of people writing their own obituaries.

I think that’s a more current trend in the last 10 to 20 years. What pointers do you have about that? 

Jennifer Carroll: I think it’s a little bit harder to do because people tend to be modest about it, but I am going to say that my own daughter said to me when I was talking about, okay, here’s, we want to make sure that you know what your dad’s wishes and my wishes are and I’m going to let you write your own obituary because, You know, that’s what I do.

She goes, but ma’am, you’re good at it. And that was a good point. And so I said, okay, this is what I’m going to do. I haven’t done it yet. So that also tells you something. And that was two years ago, I promised. Which was, I’ll set it up. And then, but I want you to feel free to write whatever you want that I, I didn’t include.

Because sometimes when you’re writing your own, you can be modest. However, I have seen some wonderfully written first person stories about your own life. Yeah. And it’s accurate, hopefully. Yeah. 

Diane Hullet: And it’s accurate. I think that’s a great thing. Don’t be overly modest. Say what the significant achievements are.

Say about some of those defining moments. But there is something really interesting about you controlling your own narrative. Yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Beautiful. Well, all of this is really you know, it’s, I think it’s interesting because to me this obituary question, this fitting life tribute question falls in this interesting category in the end of life field right now, which is like tradition meeting new, right?

And a lot of the newest technology and younger generations. So, so we, 58 years old have this kind of. Idea in my mind about what an obituary looks like. And then I think that mold is getting broken. Oh, you were talking about the New York times to say, say a little about that. Cause I think the New York times is part of what started to break this mold and show us some more opportunities for writing and sharing.

Jennifer Carroll: The New York Times, and I’ll also send links to all of this. The New York Times has a desk devoted to really good writers selecting the best stories that they can about people in the newspaper. And it says, perhaps, no other newspaper section celebrates life as much as the obituaries. And that’s what I Each of these people say, so they, this is a documentary and it is explores the world of the writers in this section at that time, 2017 and their subjects focusing on their approach to their daily works and their narrative flair.

And this is 

Diane Hullet: a documentary film that Jennifer is talking about called Obit life on a deadline. 

Jennifer Carroll: Yes. And so, right around the same time, several books came out. The one that I referred to, which is the article, it also is called Obit and it’s by Jim Sheeler Inspiring Stories of Ordinary People Who Lived Extraordinary Lives.

I love that tagline so much that I actually have adopted it too. You think that it’s all gotta be extraordinary, and that’s a point I actually wanted to make to reinforce myself. The extraordinary moments of ordinary lives happen every day, and that’s also very important to record. We’re not looking for everybody to be extraordinary, but everybody’s life has those moments.

And that’s what this book is all about. And there’s several others I thought it might be easier just to, and I sent these to you, Diane, if you can just include those in the chat and then everybody can see that there’s quite a few books that are written just about this. How do they go about it?

What were the best stories that they enjoyed around the world? And and, and some people feel really strongly about this as an art form. 

Diane Hullet: Oh, I love it. Obituaries as, as an art form. That just, that’s why this intrigues me so, because it’s creative, it’s legacy, it’s storytelling, and it’s personal. All of this in one place.

Oh my gosh. That’s such a great summation statement, Jennifer. Well, I, I appreciate your time so much and your expertise in this area. Again, you bring so much as a writing coach and as someone who really started your journalism and writing career. On Saturday nights and Sunday nights, making obituaries for Monday morning.

And look how far it’s come and look how it’s changed in your own mind and in the field. 

Jennifer Carroll: It’s, it’s, it’s really been an interesting trajectory. And all you people who start out working Saturday nights, there, a lot of good can come out from that. 

Diane Hullet: It’s so well said. So well said. Well, thanks again for your time.

And again, you know, you can listen to Jennifer talk about what does it mean to write your own story back on Best Life, Best Death number 12, which I think is amazing. And then this podcast will go up as, you know, somewhere around number 150. So I look forward to hearing if this, you know, is helpful to listeners in terms of how they.

Think about their approach to a so called simple obituary. 

Jennifer Carroll: Thank you, Diane. And it’s a pleasure to be on. I also have watched your podcast through these years and seen how you’ve grown with Best Life, Best Death, and it’s been amazing. And, and I’ve learned so much from you too. 

Diane Hullet: Ah, thank you. Well, as always, you can find out more about the work I do at bestlifebestdeath.

com. Thanks so much for listening.