What an honor to chat with three leading doulas and teachers, Diane Button, Gabby Jimenez and Angela Shook. Their new book combines the best of all that they know – over 30 years of experience with death and dying. The Doula Tool Kit: The Complete Practical Guide for End-of-Life Doulas and Caregivers provides “the guidance and tangible tools that people need to actually feel comfortable to sit with the dying.”

Learn more and get the book here –

⁠https://www.thehospiceheart.net/⁠

⁠https://www.dianebutton.com/⁠

⁠https://angelashook.com/⁠

Get the book here.

Transcript:

Hi, I’m Diane Hullet and welcome to the Best Life, Best Deaf Podcast. I’m kind of just giddy this morning because I’m recording with three amazing doulas, Gabby Jimenez, Diane Button, and Angela Shook. Welcome ladies. Hi. Hi. And these women have just written a fantastic book called The Doula Toolkit. And we’re literally recording this on late November and the book comes out December 4th, 2023.

So they’re excited about the book. I’m excited about the book and this conversation. And we just kind of want to explain what’s in the book and talk about how this applies to doulas, how this applies to anybody who’s a caregiver, because there’s so much here. That’s relevant. And these three women bring 30 years of doula experience to the table and they have a lot to offer.

So I thought, why, you know, Gabby, you and I’ve talked a few times on the podcast. Why don’t you start with just, you know, introduce yourself and then we’ll just go around. All right. Well, [00:01:00] thank you for having us Diane. This is definitely a passion project for all of us. My name is Gabby. I’m a hospice nurse and an end of life doula.

I actually just wrote a blog this morning about combining the two and, and really how the doula comes into it. So I’m just going to read you a little excerpt. What it comes down to, at least for me, is removing fear and uncertainty, respecting curiosity, not making it about me, considering all feelings, never pointing fingers or passing judgment, and finding a way to bring everyone together when that last breath is taken, so that when it is, that person feels peace.

It doesn’t always happen, sometimes that’s okay too, but I always do my best to reduce the negative energy in the room and finding peace if possible. That’s what it means to me to, to be present at the end of life as a doula, and for me it’s also as a nurse, but really it’s the doula aspect that I think sort of circles all of that together.

Beautiful. Thanks, Gabby. And you’ve been a hospice nurse for many, many years. [00:02:00] So again, at the bedside of a lot of people, whether it’s medical aid in dying or a death from a terminal illness or old age, you’ve, you’ve seen so much. Yes. I was trying to count. How can you possibly count? Right. But I would say it’s probably about 2000 last breaths which is twice that many hands I’ve held, you know, and yeah, it’s a lot.

Yeah. Beautiful. Thanks. And Diane, how about you? Well, hi. And thank you again for having us here. Yeah, so I started out, I was kind of involved in a lot of end of life journeys for people, maybe starting around 25 years ago, family members, friends, kind of that person that was called all the time. And I, I really kind of gravitated in a curious way about, The difference in the way people die, you know, the peaceful death and the not so peaceful death.

And that really just struck me in many ways, even to the point that I went back and got my master’s degree and wrote my thesis on the components of a meaningful life to reflect back on, [00:03:00] you know, what makes a peaceful death really is having a peaceful life, even though obviously we can never guarantee a peaceful death, but.

You know, it really started with curiosity and then about around 20 years ago now I started volunteering at hospice and then I started realizing what the doula world held and the possibilities that exist for us to be able to spend long periods of time with our clients and to really dig deep with our clients.

And so. I’ve been doing that ever since, and I just love all aspects of it. I’m an instructor at the university of Vermont, where we teach an end of life doula program, and then I have an awesome practice here in the San Francisco Bay area with four partners and a larger group of referrals, and we’re quite busy.

And we’re, we’re realizing that there is opportunity for doulas out there in the world to really. You know, have a full client roster. And so we’re just enjoying that right now. And I’m also an author just like Gabby, [00:04:00] except for Gabby’s an AI chat bot and writes so, so fast. I can’t ever keep up with Gabby, but but I’ve, I’ve written a few books about end of life to kind of centered around that, you know, what makes a meaningful life to, to be prepared at the end.

Beautiful. So amazing. I it’s so fascinating to that you live on the West Coast and teach on the East Coast. So, you know, zoom has made all that possible, right? Absolutely. Wonderful. And Angela, yeah, thank you for having us. So I’m definitely the newbie of the group. I only came into working into end of life about Six years ago started as a hospice volunteer and it really wasn’t until the death of a family member that I saw what hospice could really do.

And that end of life didn’t have to be scary, that it could come with grace and forgiveness and healing. And that wasn’t something I had ever experienced before. So I really kind of dove in to end of life education and jumped right [00:05:00] into multiple trainings and Got involved with the National End of Life Dual Alliance and became their president eventually.

And really just fell in love with, with serving at this time in somebody’s life. And I feel a little cocky saying this now, but I remember at the beginning thinking, Oh my gosh, wouldn’t it be great if there was a career or a role where I could be like a hospice volunteer, but all the time and not a volunteer, just do this all the time.

Just do this work. And then going online and finding, oh, there’s, there’s this thing called a doula. So I thought I created it. So it was so great to find out that there was so much education available out there. It’s actually something, the role that I have seen my father do my whole life. He really was the person in our family that when somebody was at end of life or needed that help, he jumped in and did everything.

I tell him all the time that he’s a doula before I even knew what doulas were. So I’ve been really fortunate in the past six years to take on [00:06:00] this work full time. Like Diane, I’m also an instructor for the University of Vermont’s end of life doula certificate programs. I have my own business here in Northern Michigan called Dragonfly End of Life Services.

And the past two years I’ve gotten very much involved with working as a companion animal doula. I actually partnered about a year and a half ago with a local mobile veterinarian. To work with her end of life clients and patients. So it’s been only a short journey, about six years, but it has been twisty and wide and wonderful.

And I’m just thankful to be in the presence of, of women like Diane and Gabby and come together on a project like this. Oh, amazing. I love everything you just said, Angela. I’ve always sort of felt like, shouldn’t there be a doula in every home? Like, shouldn’t this just be a thing? And I love that you said your dad was doing this before you even knew there was a name, and this might be a good opportunity.

I think Angela, if you would just say like, there are definitely people listening who are going a what a do what, you know, so say just a [00:07:00] tiny bit more about how this term doula comes to be, because your book is called the Doula Toolkit. Great. I’m glad you asked because I feel like I’m defining it less to people.

It seems like it’s getting some momentum. So it used to be, I would say I’m a death doula, end of life doula, and people would just look at me so blankly. So it’s, it’s nice to see that we are getting more exposure and there’s more awareness of the role. And the word doula originally, you know, means to serve.

It’s, it’s someone who serves and. We kind of actually decided to start our book with the definition of what we consider the death doula because everyone does still kind of have this question. So our definition that we believe in is a trained non medical professional of extraordinary compassion and kindness, who brings emotional, practical, and unbiased support and expertise for those nearing death.

Also known as end of life doulas, these caring professionals are often called upon to provide comfort, Palm and education for the dying person and their [00:08:00] loved ones, and we believe that’s the heart of it. You know, they’re every one of our doulas we all offer a variety of services and come from different skill sets.

So, the actual roles and tasks that we do could be anything from advanced care plans companionship and respite care, helping to connect to community resources. Legacy work and holding vigil. The amazing work of assisting with medical aid and dying. Memorial planning. It’s really encompasses so much, but we believe that the definition really explains the heart of the work.

I love it. That’s a beautiful definition. And I like the way, you know, even that you’re bringing in animals and I always think of the role of a doula as being so key for family because death can be so disruptive to a family. And I think doulas are one of the roles that help guide and support a family so it doesn’t have to blow to smithereens, right?

Well, Diane, tell us how, you know, how did this book get started? Well, it’s kind of fun these [00:09:00] days because as the doula explosion is happening, and it was just fantastic. A lot of us are getting to know each other and zoom has been great for that. And so that’s how I met Angela being on the board across the country and, you know, hearing Gabby on podcasts and such.

And so we were all, we, we all kind of got to know each other. And I, I knew that Gabby and Angela would really connect well with each other. And so I’ve known Angela for years now and I met Gabby in February in Oregon at a conference and met her again in person right after that, because I couldn’t stand it, I needed more Gabby time.

And so we all got together on a phone call just to introduce each other and get to know each other. And we started having this conversation about how many phone calls and how many emails we get week after week from people who just got out of schools, classes, trainings. Do you have an intake form? Do you have an agreement?[00:10:00] 

Can I shadow you? I just got a call for a client. I don’t know what to do. You know, where do I start? And so we just, and we kind of really dug into how many. Questions people were asking us and we realized like there really isn’t a place where people can go and get an intake form or feel the confidence that comes from walking in prepared to their first client’s house or having a ritual that might folks.

Create some peace or some, some calm in the home or any of that there’s, there’s not, there wasn’t a place. And so we just kind of came together thinking, let’s do this. And what was great. Well, we work together seamlessly. I mean, I could have a whole podcast about how to work together in an awesome way because we’ve had so much fun.

But we all took certain areas and then we overlapped together and we sort of invited each other into our areas so that we kept getting bigger and bigger. So what started out to be maybe we thought was just going to be I thought [00:11:00] anyway it was going to be like 20 or 25 pages of information is now close to 200 pages of doula tips and ideas and forms and agreements and creative ideas.

Fantastic. Yeah, I’ve seen just a little bit of the book because they, they don’t even have hot copies in their hands quite yet of the final book. It’s coming out next week. But the, the table of contents really kind of lays it out. Gabby, do you want to take us through kind of what’s in the book? Oh, my goodness.

So the back of the book is actually a perfect explanation of what it is. So the back of the book says the tool a toolkit, excuse me, the doula toolkit say that three times fast. Sample client agreements detailed client intake methods and forms templates for meaningful life reviews. Proven and creative ideas for legacy work.

Vigil planning checklist forms and what to bring. Sample agreements and forms for medical aid and dying clients. How to be successful companion animal doula. The [00:12:00] important keys to ritual and ceremony in your work. Simple need to know doula tips to help you succeed. Key lessons and reflections from 30 years in doula work.

What Diane said was. First of all, I have to echo her. We worked so well together. It’s, you know, sometimes it can be very hard when you have an idea and a vision and a passion to create something. I’m a solo worker when I write, write everything I’ve written was by myself. And, and I like doing that because in many ways I think this is mine, but to have other opinions brought in and to work.

So seamlessly together to add our, our sprinkle or sprinkle our dust, you know, it was magical and it, it was like this flower that wouldn’t stop having blooms. And one of the things that I really like is that we gathered all of our tips, the things we’ve learned the things that we use now in our own work right things that makes sense to us, [00:13:00] and we throughout the whole book are sections called doula tips.

Thanks. Right. The tips are everything for us. Those are our nuggets. Those are our little things that we keep in our pocket that we make sure families know if you only got the book for the doula tips. It would help you. And the thing about a doula is that we do all kinds of things. You know, there’s some that do the paperwork part of things, the advanced directives.

I don’t like paperwork, so I don’t do that. You know, I’m more vigil and, and, and that type of thing. I want to do the vigils and the rituals and the beautiful, you know, Moments like that, that’s what I like to do, that’s in this book. And all of what Angela does with the animals, that’s in the book. And so it really taps into every aspect of being a doula, but not just a doula, a person who is present for someone that dies.

And how to do that. What does it mean? [00:14:00] How can, how can we, how can we give them the guidance and support so they feel more confident and comfortable at the bedside? This book does that. Wow. I mean, how to be present for someone who’s dying. I mean, you just nailed it. That’s so big. And so many of us are called to that.

And I think that’s, that is like the big key that’s missing in our society. In, you know, whatever, generalize the last 30 years, maybe call it or 40 years, we just have gotten away from understanding that that’s okay to do. And it’s more than okay. It’s, it’s a level of presence for the person departing and for the family members and friends who are there.

It’s, it’s, I think an incredible thing that we’ve got this explosion of doulas happening right now. Absolutely. You know It’s, it’s kind of the flavor of the week right now, right? Everybody wants to do it. But it’s not as easy as that. I think people assume they can go and take a class, right? Get the certificate that says you’ve just completed and graduated a class.

You’re now [00:15:00] a an end of life doula. But it’s bigger than that. It’s more than that. And it, and you can’t just magically become a doula because you’ve taken a class. You need to know what it means to witness death, to experience Someone else’s anticipatory grief to be able to bring the person in the bed with the person waiting at the bedside to say goodbye and somehow bring them together in a way that can be actually considered beautiful to be a doula is going to take time.

And experience, and it doesn’t happen overnight because you have a piece of paper. And I think that that’s the misconception about this role. Everyone wants to do it, of course they do it’s beautiful work, but you have to. You have to learn what it means and be, take the time and really truly honor that sacred act.

And this book, in my [00:16:00] opinion, as a doula and also as a hospice nurse, this book gives you the tools and guidance to get you on your way with confidence, but you still need to have that experience. Can I add something to that? I was thinking when you were speaking, Gabby, about like reflecting back to when I first started doing this work and how many of those doula tips are reflective, even the ones that the two of you wrote are reflective of the growth that comes with each single client and their family, right?

We just keep growing and learning. And so we did try to include as much as that as we could in the book. But one of the things that really struck me was how, when I first. Became a doula, I would go in the door and I would go right to the client, you know, at the bedside, assuming that 100 percent that was why I was there.

Right. But now, like, this is kind of a doula tip, really, is that I’ve learned to zoom out, like, I take it all in, because sometimes there’s [00:17:00] somebody, you know, sitting it. In the corner quietly, who really needed someone to talk to that day. And so I’ve really, I think that that’s what time gives us. And hopefully this book gives us a lot of sort of tidbits like that, of just, you know, not assuming when you knock on that door, not assuming that, you know, what’s going to be greeting you on the other side.

I think that’s why this. Book matters and the information that we’ve included is so helpful. You know, like we’ve all said, it’s the tool that we wish we would have had when we first became doulas ourselves. But I think it’s a real confidence builder to those who have taken training, but are feeling intimidated or unsure of how to bring that knowledge.

To fruition and back to their communities. And this book actually has real life tools and samples so that other people at least have a place to start. You know, it includes those hands on experiences and best practices that you only really learn once you are actually doing the work, the [00:18:00] things that are difficult to teach, but need to be experienced to know.

And I think some of our stories also show that we don’t always get everything perfectly right. And that’s okay. It’s okay not to know everything and to have insecurities and doubts, but that showing up with a compassionate servant’s heart is what matters. I think the book also highlights the benefits of having a doula network.

I mean that we aren’t alone doing this work. I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve reached out to Diane and Gabby and other doulas. For brainstorming or support when it comes to an issue with a client. I think this book’s a really good representation of the supportive end of life doula community that exists.

Beautiful. What are some of your favorite contributions? What’s something that you added to the book that you just love? So, well, you know, we’re all going to have something to say because we loved every single moment of putting this together. I mean, it’s really all of it is wonderful. There were my personal things that I love putting in was the rituals, you know, [00:19:00] I’ve made these up as I go along, and I’ve shared some of them in pieces and blogs and whatnot in classes for this book.

I handed them over. I, I listed the items you would need to make that happen for someone else. And I gave the instructions and, and what I do. And part of me felt like I was giving something secret away, you know, like this, this is mine. And I realized like what Angela said, this work is all about community.

We are a community and and we’re not hoarders of our tools were shares of our tools. And so as I was writing everything down and sending it to Diane, who was the leader of the pack, I felt like I was gifting somebody something. And there was something really beautiful in that and I’ll probably cry now the thought of somebody becoming a doula and taking something that we shared in that book and making it theirs and bringing peace to a human being who is dying or grieving.[00:20:00] 

That’s why we do this. That’s why we wrote this. That’s what matters most to us. So I think for me, it was, it was sharing my rituals and handing them over and being okay with that. But also reading things like Angela wrote this beautiful forgiveness ritual that is so beautiful that I asked if I could use it.

Right. And Diane and her doula bag, I’m thinking, I don’t have this in my doula bag where did she even come up with this, like, I learned as I, I read their material. I’m going to be a better doula because of them. Yeah, I think one of my favorite things that I shared were some of the actual kind of case studies and stories of working with, with our clients and with, with my companion animal work.

I’ve really, really had some beautiful experiences there. You know, as doulas, we’re trained to show our clients unconditional positive regard. And that means showing up with our opinions and without our judgments and that we’re just truly present for somebody [00:21:00] else. And we leave our ego, our assumptions, everything behind.

And that’s great. And we teach everybody that we, you know, that’s a huge talent of being a doula. It’s not easy. Sometimes that is so difficult to do. And I think one of the stories that I shared about my pet doula work kind of highlighted a time that I really struggled with that. I was invited to support an elderly couple during their in home euthanasia appointment for their dog and to transfer the body for cremation afterwards.

It was obvious. They obviously very much loved this animal, and they were doing everything they could to care for her. They were elderly themselves. They had a lot of medical issues. They were having a hard enough time taking care of their own self. But this poor dog, she was So dirty, very weak and very, very smelly.

You know, she had open sores that were infected and because she couldn’t get outside on her own, they had been placing her on like just multiple blankets. So she was just covered in her waist. And it’s really hard sometimes in these situations not [00:22:00] to place blame immediately or make a judgment and on the owners or on the situation.

And I just had to keep reminding myself of those UPR, you know, the unconditional positive regard and reminding myself, hey, they did everything they could. This animal is loved. And that anything that I did to show judgment could potentially add guilt. And harm to the pain they were already experiencing.

So I really had to, to school my facial expressions. I, I really tried to be that calming and peaceful presence and, and when they got through with their goodbyes and it was time for me to remove her, I was really worried that my facial expressions would show even a little bit of that hesitancy that I was feeling about picking her up.

And again, just kept having to remind myself like this is this is why I’m here. This is what I’m doing. This is their loved one. This is their cherished companion, and they deserve my respect. It was hard, but it was a really good reminder that death isn’t always pretty. [00:23:00] Sometimes it’s even kind of gross, but you can still find beauty in it, and I had to really reframe this experience in my mind.

To put aside my feelings and when I placed the dog in the vehicle, I arranged her in a waiting bag and I kind of just noticed how pretty she was even for being so sick for so long and dirty, she had this really beautiful multicolored coat and the sweetest face and I just took some time arranging her and speaking to her and stroking her ears and I just realized that I was the last person.

Who would ever touch this animal? I was the last one to ever pet her, to get to love on her, and I just got filled with this like awe and gratitude and felt humbled. Like this was an honor. All of the, the gross, the ew, all of that just disappeared and I just had a chance to love her. And loving her, even just for those few moments, you know, kind of taught me that [00:24:00] the importance.

Of having the unconditional positive regard of treating all the animals and humans in my care with compassion and respect and without judgment. And it’s not easy. We talk about that a lot, but it’s, it’s one of the hardest parts to show up and leave, leave yourself behind for somebody else. Beautiful. Wow.

Thanks, Angela. You know, I think about there’s a woman named Amanda Stranza, who creates basically alters around animals who’ve been killed on the road. She creates you know she’ll take a young coyote that was hit and arrange it with flower petals and leaves and I’m always so touched by it because You know, roadkill is kind of like our discards, right?

I mean, we just, we, we often ignore it or we drive by it and it pains us, but we don’t feel we can do anything. And she’s taken it upon herself to create these beautiful pieces of art and photograph these animals. And I think that same kind of sense [00:25:00] of like, she’s the last one to touch them with love with this unconditional positive regard.

So how, how incredible, and these experiences change us, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Diane, how about you? What was, what was something that went in the book that you felt really moved by or excited about? It was, I mean, I almost feel like talking about their parts of the book because I was so moved by theirs because it was new to me, but I have to agree with Angela, the stories we hadn’t planned on including stories because we were just going to offer these forms and it was going to be a little bit more kind of businessy, I guess.

But the stories brought this huge heart to this project. And it, it really reflects the work that we do. And I love to do legacy work and life reviews, but I hadn’t really written that much about vigils. But this particular time, I included a story about Vigiling that really kind of Reminded me of how full bodied [00:26:00] our work can be as a doula.

So I had, I, you know, with clients, sometimes we have clients that we only meet for a few hours, and then sometimes we have long term clients. So I had this one time about a year ago, I had two clients at the same time. And one of them was just a short term client. And she was on oxygen and having trouble breathing, and she was going to do medical aid and dying the next day.

And I went to see her and the somebody asked if I could sit with her. She was living alone and I said sure absolutely. So, I got to her house and I thought, you know, she just seemed. Scared because the oxygen and I asked if she wanted me to spend the night, which is a beautiful thing. We can do as doulas, you know, and she said, no, she thought she’d be okay.

And I stayed a little longer and, and then I asked her again, do you want me to stay? No, I’m really okay. So I’m walking out the door and she goes, excuse me. Could you stay, you know, would you mind staying with me? And I’m like, absolutely. So I went home, got my stuff and I came back and I [00:27:00] spent the night with her.

And three or four times in the middle of the night, she came and sat on the end of my bed in the room next door just to talk, you know, and I realized she just really needed a friend. And it was just, it was so touching and it was really, really short. But then in contrast, I recently had a client for a year and a half, and it was a client that I got to weave all the doula experiences being her advocate doing life reviews, writing letters to an estranged child.

Gathering trinkets around her house to leave as gifts for the following Christmas for those in her family, writing a letter for her memorial, planning her memorial, digging into her spirituality, like we did everything and it was just so, so beautiful. So she was getting close to the end of her life, but she didn’t qualify for medical aid and dying.

So we talked about all of our end of life options, and she decided to opt for v said voluntarily stopping eating and drinking, which is no easy road. And [00:28:00] so, her, her niece and her. She had family members around a few, and I was the doula, and we started this around the clock. Vigil with her and it lasted for about 11 days and it was, first of all, this woman taught me more about being a doula than anybody I’d ever been with because I experienced almost everything that I could imagine that a doula could do, including all the family dynamics and everything.

So I really am so grateful for her and On the other side of the coin, I also learned a lot of how I could do things better. And it was, I don’t consider it like necessarily a mistake. I just wish I’d done things a little bit differently because vigil can take a long, long time. And as doulas, we need to remember to take care of ourselves.

And so I was thinking, okay, there’s a couple of family members here, three family members and me, we can rotate and that’s great for four days or five days. But when you get [00:29:00] to like six, seven, eight, nine days, and then people are. Like dropping off at night because it’s exhausting. I needed a crew and I reached out to my doula group, but ironically, every other person was sitting vigil somewhere else that weekend.

So I ended up vigiling by myself for a couple of days straight. But those are the lessons we learn, learn. And then, you know, when a client is taken away with a mortuary by the mortuary or the funeral home. I usually wait. I always wait, but I will go in and I’ll clean up. I’ll make the bed and I’ll make sure it’s tidy so that the sheets aren’t all messy and all that.

And it would just like to have her body leave. I follow them out. I come back in, I straighten the bed. And I think, wow, that was the most beautiful kind of full. Loving experience of a doula I could ever ask for. And so that’s one of the stories in there. But there’s some awesome stories in the book that we’ve [00:30:00] all experienced like that.

Working with children, working with medical aid and dying clients, working with animals. I mean, it’s pretty amazing. It’s amazing. Well, I just, I’m so excited to see this book and I mean, what’s, what’s your biggest hope for this book? I hope that anyone who reads it feels empowered. To accompany others at the end of life, you know, whether as a doula with clients or a hospice volunteer or a family with their own, you know, their own family caregiving that this book provides the guidance and tangible tools that they need to actually feel comfortable doing this work.

I love that the guidance on the tangible tools to sit with the dying. That’s huge. Gabby, how about you. yOu know, I think what I would want most. Is for I want somebody to read this book after deciding to become a doula or maybe it’ll inspire them to become a doula or a caregiver, but to read this book and think to themselves.

[00:31:00] I can do this. I, I’ve got this, but to also have the bravery to make it their own, you know, to, to take our tools. We’re not asking you to copy us or be us. You know, we’re, we’re already that. What we want you is to be the very best you that you can be in this work and to see your gifts. I think what I would like this book to do is inspire others to see their gifts.

Great. Diane, you know, going back to, I wish, or we wish we had this book when we were just starting out, you know, my hope is that new doulas will get a sense of confidence by feeling like they’re, they can knock on the door and be prepared. For whatever awaits them on the other side to not have that sitting in the car sweating anxiety.

What do I do? I’m so scared. I hope this book takes away that fear and [00:32:00] gives a lot of ideas and tools so that when you do knock on someone’s door, you can be there for that person and everybody on the other side with comfort and ease and confidence. Wonderful. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t wait to read this book, which comes out next week, December 4th, 2023.

And maybe maybe each of you could just kind of say your website, so we know how to find you. And then someone tell us how to find this book. I’m Gabby and you can find all of my stuff and the book will be on there as well. My classes, my blogs, my podcast interviews, and the books at https://www.thehospiceheart.net/ everything will be there. And when the book comes out, it’ll be there too. 

And you can find all my stuff at https://www.dianebutton.com/ same thing. I’m going to post the book up there in a couple of days, so it will be easily accessible along with my other books. And you can find your way to my doula group or UVM trainings or anything from dianebutton.

com. 

And mine’s fairly simple as [00:33:00] well. It’s https://angelashook.com/ . And we’ll have the book there. And also as of December 4th, you can find our book on Amazon. com. Fantastic. Well, thank you all so much for joining me. This has been just a really moving conversation about, I think, what’s possible when people come together and are excited to share and aren’t, as you said, Gabby, kind of aren’t just like holding it tight, like, these are my secrets, but more like, Wow, the more people who do this, the better, whether it’s a general family member caring for someone at the end of life, which can be so overwhelming, or whether it’s someone fresh out of a doula training, or whether it’s someone who’s been a hospice volunteer or hospice nurse, I think there’s so much to be learned from each other and with each other that the whole intent is to make the experience of dying better for one individual, for a group of individuals, for our society, right?

Thanks so much for joining me, and you’ve been listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. As always, you can find out more about the work I do at [00:34:00] Best Life. Best death.com. Thanks for listening.

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