In this episode, learn about “wind phones” — what are they, where are they, who is making them, and why? Created to share a continuing relationship with someone who has died, wind phones are in our communities in some surprising places. As Amy Dawson, curator of the website mywindphone.com, says, “The concept of sending messages on the wind isn’t new… It goes back to Greek mythology, and beyond. Gods sent messages on the wind.” Find out how you can send messages on the wind through this creative and widespread phenomenon.

http://mywindphone.com

https://www.instagram.com/mywindphone/

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: Hi, I am Diane Hullett, and you’re listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. And today I am here with Amy Dawson, who’s gonna talk to us about this amazing, fascinating phenomenon called Wind Phones. Welcome, Amy. 

Amy Dawson: Well, thank you so much for having me. I, I, I am really looking forward to talking with you today.

Me too. I 

Diane Hullet: mean, I’m trying to think. I feel like I first came across the idea of wind phones on Instagram and there I would, you know, the algorithm would throw up these things and say, here’s a wind phone somewhere and here’s another wind phone somewhere. And I was intrigued because it’s sort of a, I. Art installation and a grief piece and a community service, and it’s like, it’s all these things woven together.

It’s So, tell us what it is. How did you become connected to wind phones and what is it that you can share about these? 

Amy Dawson: Well, wind phones are extremely powerful and I first read about them back, I think. Thousand 19. My daughter Emily had a terminal illness and I was reading a lot on grief, a lot on hospice, a lot, anything I could get my hands on.

I’m a reading specialist by by career for 33 years. And so that’s really where I was. Kind of focusing my you know, trying to help her, trying to figure out how I was feeling. And somehow, and anyone that’s lived through take being a caretaker for somebody that’s terminally ill, it all runs together as far as dates and months and times.

But somehow I stumbled upon the story of the wind phone and the wind phone also called the telephone of the wind. And if you were Japan, it’s called Kaze. No genwa. Was created in 2010 by a gardener in Japan, and his name is Ataru Sasaki. And he is a, an elderly man who lost his cousin he was very close with.

And so he created and built this glass sided phone booth in his garden, and that’s where he went out and spoke with his cousin every day. And Japanese believe in their bereavement is a bit different than ours in the United States, where they believe in continuing your relationship, continuing the bond with the person that died.

So that’s what he was doing. He was continuing the bond. 2011 comes a year later in the, the tsunami hit, if you remember, and thousands of people were killed in that area. Japan. And he moved his, his phone booth, his phone box up onto a hillside, and it became a pilgrimage. People all over Japan came that lost loved ones that were washed out to sea that were never seen again. 

They came and they said their goodbyes or they said there’s a beautiful documentary out there where, where they kind of have a camera in the windfall booth and they record what people are saying with their commission. And so that’s where it began. And I just think it’s so important that we really give him the the, the credit and the, the admiration and the, the thankfulness to him because.

He really began what has now become an worldwide movement. You know, it’s really caught on, especially in the last couple of years since coded. That’s kind of the history of 

Diane Hullet: a windfall. That’s incredible. It’s such a moving story. I vividly remember the tsunami and the, the images from it and the sense of.

Powerlessness and helplessness in the face of the, the ocean, you know? Really, it was just so huge. So how incredible to set this glass phone booth up on a hill and make it available for people to be with their grief? 

Amy Dawson: Well, you know, and I find that, that what he experienced was, he did not know how big or what this would become.

 You know, when he first said, yes, come, come and, and say, you goodbyes on my phone now. He said over 30,000 visitors. Could, the numbers could be higher at this point. So, you know I I, I’m just in awe of, of him. But I think then the next thing to talk about is like, what is a wind phone? Well, it’s a, it, it, we gotta talk about it in two ways.

What it actually tangibly is, is a rotary phone or a phone of some sort. Doesn’t have to be rotary, but you will find most star rotary. There’s something that about the tactile connection of dialing the rotary phone. Placed somewhere, and it’s usually placed in a dedicated space on a trail in a cemetery.

It doesn’t, and Mr. Sasaki said this himself. It doesn’t really work just to place it anywhere. It really needs to be in a place of peace and, and some, some privacy and a place where people feel safe. And what it is, is people can go and make a phone call. Now I speak of when phones from a bereavement sense, because my life revolves around bereavement brief having my daughter die, but that’s, I get emails all the time from people who, loss of hope, loss of a dream, loss of a relationship, not due to death.

I had an email from someone who lost their home was foreclosed on, and they went and spoke to the wind phone. And I also had an email six months ago from a woman who said that she felt that she lost herself within her marriage. She went and she spoke to herself. She got her thoughts together and she was going through a divorce.

I mean, there are all sorts of ways. So I speak of bereavement grief, but I don’t want to in any way, not make sure I say to people that it’s for whatever grief you experience. 

Diane Hullet: Well, you know what it really, what it is, is it is a tangible ritual. Yes. So it is a tangible place to go that, as you said, is a place of intention.

It’s not, you know, on the corner of a, of a Safeway building or something. It’s a phone that’s put somewhere that’s a reflective space that allows you to have this ritual of dialing and then speaking and, and giving you 

Amy Dawson: permission. Yeah, yeah. It’s permission to grief, right? In a grief-phobic society, it’s saying there is a space for you.

Go and breathe because after Covid came, right Diane, we know like funerals. I mean, we had to wait six months to have Emily’s funeral. Funerals became, you know, chaotic and even non-existent. And we didn’t get to say goodbye to people that died in hospitals. And I think that’s why we’ve seen such an uptick, you know, and in wind phones, it’s really no different than going to a grave site releasing butterflies.

Balloons. It’s like you said, it’s the ritual. 

Diane Hullet: And what’s so interesting is there is kind of a tendency, not, not everywhere, but there there is, there are not always funerals, as you said, because of covid or because of distance. Sometimes families either put that off or don’t do it at all. And then there is this sort of.

Sense of, well, how do I grieve? And not everybody’s in a cemetery these days. If you have ashes, maybe you haven’t done anything with those ashes yet, so what, what do we do? I mean, I can imagine going to a wind phone and calling a beloved person who had died and sort of asking them like, what should I do with your ashes now?

And see what response comes. And I, I just love it because it’s a combination of, of art and public grief and. Service and intuition that all come together. 

Amy Dawson: It really is true, and it is whatever it needs to be for that person, you know, and it’s not for everyone. And I’ll, I, I do get some people saying I, I don’t see how that helps.

You know, like anything, you know, therapies, for some people it’s not for others. It’s not for everyone. But for those that it is, for it is a powerful tool and so wonderful that now they’re more accessible for people to. To find a, a wind phone and to say what they wanna say to continue the relationship with the person that they love and lost if they choose.

We talk to the people who died anyway, don’t we? I mean, I don’t know. Every now and then, like I’ll say something like my mother used to say, I’ll be like, oh yeah, okay, mom. Yeah. Like, I, I hear you. I just heard doing what I 

Diane Hullet: said, continued relationship. It’s so beautiful that the beginning was this man in Japan who really had this sense of a continuous relationship.

And then how did you, your, your daughter was dying and you became familiar with it, and then how did you sort of make the leap to what you do now with wind foam? 

Amy Dawson: Well and again, it’s a little bit foggy in my mind because, you know, the first year or two in grief, in such deep grief that things become a little bit scattered.

However I knew I had to keep being Emily’s mom. One of the things that used to bother me greatly was people, you know, will say, how many kids do you have? I have three. I’ll never say I have, I, I have two living. I have one in heaven. But it, it is these conversations that you have where you’re like, I’m gonna keep her memory alive.

I’m gonna keep talking to her. And I knew the only way I was going to survive this was to bring Emily forward with me. To make sure that she was always with our family. She still gives presents on Christmas. I talk to her all the time on the wind phone or not. And, and she’s very much still a very big part of our family.

No different than if she were living. And so that I feel saved me. And from there, Emily loved her phone. Emily, I mean, most young women do. She was twenty-five when she died. Emily had special needs, but as she became sicker, she was, it was harder for her to get out. It was harder for her. She had her own apartment, her own life.

She had to come home. Her phone really became her lifeline. It always was, but even more so her best friends or her brother and her sister she called ’em all the time. She’d call us all the time and, and I just used to, in the early part of losing your call on the phone constantly. I still haven’t connected.

I will never disconnect her phone. And I would call her and I would text her and I, you know, and then I was like, wait a minute. And I remembered the story of the wind phone, and then I just started writing about it on my own and researching it. Tons of hours researching it. And I found that, and I find that in helping others, there’s so much therapeutic value in that, you know, and we grieve.

Community, then I feel like we heal together and, and that’s really what I did. So I started the website. I never, ever dreamt that it would become what it’s become. I mean, it’s huge. And now I have over 170, I think, identified wind phones on the Mywindphone.com 

Diane Hullet: website. Wow, that is really something. Yeah. So just to say that again, it’s Mywinphone.com and it’s essentially a mapping tool, this website that allows people to find out if there’s a WinPhone near them because people reach out to you and let you know if they’ve put one up.

Amy Dawson: Yeah. And you know, really I’ve expanded it too. It’s not only just the history of the wind foam, right? But I’ve been doing a couple new things actually. There are various different types of wind phones that I wanna make sure people know about. There are the beautiful public locations that you see and if you go on Instagram, and I know that’s how we connected Diane, you’ll see all the pictures that I’ve gathered of the wind phones and things, and they’re on the website and they’re beautiful, absolutely stunning and all very original and different, but.

 People also have private wind phones in their backyard. Maybe they can’t get to a location or maybe they’re choosing not to do one for the public. That’s fine. If it’s gonna help you set up that little phone in your backyard, go on Facebook Marketplace, you might find a rotary phone there. Somebody probably that you know, has one hidden away in their garage that, you know, we all think.

You know, we’re never gonna use again. There are event wind phones, mothers against impaired driving. Just had one at their conference. So a lot of hospice conferences are starting to have portable wind phones. There are traveling wind phones where I know of some brief coaches. Some death dealers are bringing wind phones with them to clients.

To help them with their grieving. And many are bringing them right to the people that are actually, you know, dying and allowing them to say the words they wanted to say to whomever before they get where they’re going. And so I think that, like, to think of it as just one public art, beautiful, absolutely beautiful installation.

It’s, it’s grown and it’s more, and so I’m trying to share that as well on the website that it can be at whatever you want it to be. You’re not hooked in or locked in. 

Diane Hullet: That’s so beautiful. And I love, there’s something about, I mean, we’re all so hooked to our phones, right? Our, our iPhones or our non-iPhone phones, and we’re all just, we have ’em like this all the time.

So even the word phone is so important to us, but those of us who remember rotary phones, they have this deep value as well. And so it’s so moving to me that we’re finding this ritual is like a society that connects us to phones and our loved ones in a totally different way. 

Amy Dawson: I’m so familiar in bringing into this concept of continuing our relationship with the people that we went before.

And one of my things is really, I would hope that we can start to reframe death as a physical loss, a physical absence, I should say, rather than like a loss. You know? And I think that’s really important. They’re not physically with us, but that doesn’t mean they’re not still with us. 

Diane Hullet: Love that. I love that.

That’s so good, Amy. Yeah. And to somehow. Allow that to be true. You know, the people that I talk with there, there is, there is generally more understanding and belief that there is a connection to the spirit world than people who believe there’s not. I mean, there are plenty of people who say, Nope, there’s nothing.

It’s lights out. That’s all there is. Many, many people have a relationship with their loved ones through butterflies or birds or Yes. Phrases or music that plays in unexpected times that’s all moving. Yes. Yes. Others, yes. 

Amy Dawson: Others. Absolutely. And it’s just so, and I think that, you know, when, when it’s just so important.

It, it, it’s so important to help people, to give them hope and to bring awareness. Not only to grief, but that we can build a new relationship with our people. You know, it’s no lesser than what it was, that we can continue to have them as part of their our lives, you know? And I think that’s really important.

And that’s always the message that, you know, the message of hope the hope of something more and 

Diane Hullet: connection. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I love it. Obviously the most famous wind phone is the wind phone in Japan. What are, what are some other you know, well-known locations might be the phrase Oh my 

Amy Dawson: gosh. And there’s so many incredible stories, which one of the things that I’ve been doing is sharing the creators words about their wind phone and why, and it’s so interesting.

But if we go back and really, I, I want, I’ve done. You know, so much research and all of this. There’s a wind phone in Ireland and it was actually put up by an artist guild and it was gorgeous. It only lasted two weeks. It was destroyed and people were heartbroken over it, of course. But that was in 2017.

So that was the first one that I can really track back to the earliest replica that I can find now. I may be correct. So, you know. Give me room. Oakland, California. There was an artist, his name was Jordan Stern, and he created a wind foam there and it was to commemorate 36 people who died in the ghost ship, warehouse fire, and he created one there.

And that is really the first one I can find in the United States, the earliest one now. I say that and I say there’s 170 plus wind phones, but you know what? They’re all over and we don’t know. I mean, they’ve been created and, and not, you know, no one’s. Covered them or, or wrote about them or, you know, they’re kind of in their own place and so who really knows.

But in my research, that’s what I thought. There’s another one. Denmark had a very early on one Police Point Park Corey Beck. And you, you’ll, if you Google telephone of the Wind, you’ll find him articles about him. He created a wind phone in Washington after one of his children’s. Friends from school, a a a young, young child passed away and he created a wind phone for her family in the park there.

Aspen Mountain is a really cool wind phone. Aspen Mountain was created by an unknown person, an artist. He showed it to the trail people that ski so they could show other people. He doesn’t wanna be or she doesn’t want to be acknowledged. It’s anonymous because it was actually, it’s not legal to put something on a federal, federal property.

 But that’s a beautiful one and a lot of people go looking for that one. That’s an that’s a real track. That’s a real adventure to find that one. It’s not right, right out there. And now there’s just so many. There was one in battle in, in Battleground, Washington. A mom put one up for her son. It’s beautiful.

There was one in Marshall, North Carolina that was absolutely the most stunning thing. It was just re rehomed because the neighbors complained. And so that would be my next thought is if you’re thinking of a windfall and you need to really make sure that you and I speak from experience, I put one up and had one removed.

You really make sure you need to have the right permissions. It’s heartbreaking when something like that happens and really think through your location. But those are just some, and now there are so many popping up and I’ll tell you one that’s really touched my heart. Deeply this week is, and it’s on Instagram and I just put it on the website, is there’s one lady Maiden.

Her name is Nancy Silverton, Colorado. It sits on a cement slab where her gravestone would sit. She has six months or less to live. She’s dying from metastatic breast cancer, and she’s a young woman and she wants people to come and talk to her at the wind. It’s gorgeous. The view overlooking like the mountains and the snow tops in the background, if you go online and look at it and her story, I featured it last week, is just beautiful.

And, and, and so every time I think I have never heard a more beautiful story about a wind phone. Another one pops up and, and I think, oh my gosh. And, and, and we have a mutual connection. Linda Shin and Bluestein who, who also is stage four cancer and is creating them in Connecticut doing a wonderful 

Diane Hullet: job.

Say more about Linda’s story. ’cause I do think it’s so beautiful. Yeah. 

Amy Dawson: You know, well, I have not met Linda personally, but I have corresponded with her and she’s an amazing woman. She’s very much an advocate. She, she sued the state of Vermont and won for their right to have medically assisted dying.

And I mean, she’s just amazing. And so she created a wind phone with her son, Jacob and it is in Connecticut, in Ridgefield. Connecticut’s gorgeous. Since then, she’s helped put up two others and what’s really cool is they just made a wind phone that’s a small little red phone. On a Lego board with Lego surrounding it and the children can check it out at the Westfield Connecticut Library.

How neat is that in a time when she could be thinking of herself, she’s thinking of others and she’s an inspiration to all. I mean, she’s, her story is amazing and, and maybe in your show notes you could link to her. ’cause she’s really, she’s got a lot of nice articles 

Diane Hullet: out there. Definitely, I’ll make sure that we put that out because I think there’s something really beautiful about how she took this on as a legacy project.

Yes. That idea, this idea of a traveling one and a traveling one for children is really beautiful. 

Amy Dawson: It really is Beautiful. You know, just, and it, it’s just, and. Honestly, I, you know, and I, so many others have Millville pa. They have just were covered in the news yesterday. They’re lovely family, the Roy songs, and they, they just created one in memory of their 14-year-old daughter who took her life.

 And it’s beautiful. And you know, when I think about it with Emily, and that’s why I do what I do, it’s to keep her spirit and her legacy alive to keep who she was and what she brought to the world here and with us, and alive and giving to others. And so that’s why one of the reasons I think wind are so powerful, each wind phone has a story.

Diane Hullet: Yeah, I think, I think everything about it is so moving. It’s, it’s, it’s got a it’s got a history to it. Each one has its story, and then every person who comes to it brings their grief, whatever that is. You know, I’ve gotta go back and dig around. There’s, I, I saw this snippet of a documentary one time, and I, I don’t remember what it was called.

I, I was, you know, scrolling and browsing through stuff and I, I’m gonna go back and find it because. And I’ve spoken of it before, but I think it’s really relevant here. So it, it showed, you know, people walking on a street, a busy street, like a New York City or a Chicago kind of busy pe I’ll send you the link.

You know what it is great. Then all of the people suddenly are wearing shirts that have the name, not, not the name, but the role of the person. They’ve lost, mother, father, sister, aunt, grandmother, multiple family members, friends, and, and you realize that everyone is walking with their grief somewhere buried or on their sleeve or in their face.

We all. Carry our losses with very little conversation about it. So when you think about the amount of. Need for grief expression. It’s, it’s just astounding. And so, you know what documentary I’m talking about? I do know. 

Amy Dawson: And, you know, I just feel like I’m hoping that that changes. I, I see it changing. You know, we weren’t taught how to breathe and we are taught so many other things in school.

Right. I just don’t know why it’s not part of the health curriculum. And that’s my next mission, is to get it in the schools. Because from childhood we could, even if there was a few lessons a year on grief, I, I really feel we can affect so many of the children’s lives moving forward so that they can recognize what grief is, know some tools to handle grief, right?

We could have taught them coping mechanisms and things, and it could, it, it would change the way things, I mean, children lose grandparents, they lose pets. We have a pet, one wind phone I posted not too long ago. There’s one in, in Canada and it’s just for pets. And it, that’s a beautiful concept. But, you know, children, grief and, and we don’t talk about it.

And, and I always go back and just say, you know, we really have taken death and dying out of the home. Right? And so years ago we used to have. The living room parlor, and we would lay our people out there and people would come to our homes and you, you know, and we would grieve together. Right? Then we became the funeral power and we took the people out of the homes.

We took death out of our home. And Hospice is wonderful and beautiful, and I’m so thankful personally for it. As Emily died in Hospice, you know, surrounded by, by our family. We used to take care of our people in the home until the end, remember? And so I think we kind of like tried to take grief out of our society and, and make us about a society that moves on and moves forward.

And you gotta, you know, you come on. Come on. And in, in doing so, we have put grief in the shadows and that hasn’t helped anyone mentally. ’cause we all agree and we all will agree 

Diane Hullet: that sometimes. Yeah. What I find moving about this, again, it feels like this synergy of kind of art and science and personal and collective, that that is really a beautiful I don’t know, a beautiful expression of something that we’re trying to connect with.

And it’s like a new way, but an old way. This, I was telling Amy before that I ran across a wind phone in Midland, Michigan. I was out on a beautiful fall day. I had been visiting my aunt and I was just looking at some leaves, and the bushes were incredible. It was evening, and I walked across all of a sudden saw this.

Very unusual artsy garden. It had teacups and photos and dresses hanging in the trees and stuffed animals and like little altars. I would almost call them sort of everywhere. And I was like, whoa, what is this? And then hanging on a tree was a phone, and by the phone was an old photograph and it had clearly been out in the weather and so on.

And I was like, oh my gosh, I think I had just 

Amy Dawson: reached out. I know which one you mean. Oh, awesome. 

Diane Hullet: Awesome. And so they the next day I took my aunt by it and she was fascinated and we were standing there and suddenly the homeowner came out and she was doing some puttering gardening by the you know, by her street.

And we went over and spoke to her. And what was fascinating about it was. The photo was not of anybody super important to her. It was a, you know, it was a photo she had found like in a thrift shop, but it evoked something for her. And the wind phone was, she just loved that it was there, that people came by and saw it.

And so I’m sure, you know, I’m sure some neighbors think, oh my gosh, who’s this kooky person putting junk all over their yard? But there was this real beauty to it. So I love that when I describe it, you’re like, oh yeah, I know which one 

Amy Dawson: that is. Yeah, that is neat. I know, I think I eat live and sleep wind bones.

You could show me a picture and I’ll tell you where it is. You know, I just posted one last week and it was really cool and you know, someone asked me in a interview I did a month or so ago, which is your favorite. You can’t have a favorite. They’re all so different and so beautiful and so perfect. But there’s this really cool one that just went up and I shared it last week on Instagram, and it’s made out of a violin.

It’s beside a river. It’s got antlers for where you would hang up the headset. It’s got a little sand dollar glued in the middle, and it looks like a collection of all the things that whomever this is in memory or in honor of. Loved, right? Because it’s so personal it doesn’t have that I could see when I found it, it doesn’t have anything as far as a sign that I could read, that I could attribute to anyone or or to whom it’s dedicated.

But it is so cool and I just think like all of them are perfect. So when people reach out to me and say, will you help me brainstorm my wind bonus? You know, there’s no right or wrong way. No, what it, what will help you, what will is gonna help you reconnect and what’s gonna help you move your relationship forward with your loved one, the person that you are missing.

You know? So I just think that it’s really such a beautiful thing and, and I think there’s a lot of healing that happens in creation when you can create something. 

Diane Hullet: Yes. I think again, for me, that goes back to this idea of ritual and I don’t know, sometimes people, you know, people feel kind of reactive to the word ritual, so sometimes I don’t even use that word, but, but it’s more like just what you’ve just said.

How can we create and in creating something moves, and I think that’s what Ritual does. It’s, it’s like I, I heard Dr. Sarah Kerr talk about it one time in a course I took with her and she described it as, you know, ritual. Helps make something that’s either true, be true, both underneath and on the outside, or it makes something that’s true on the outside be true on the inside.

In other words, ritual can create this coherence between our inner experience and the outer world, and there’s something about that that the windphone. Makes a statement and an actual, literal connection to being able to speak to someone in a way that we’re so used to speaking. And yet they’re not there.

But they are there. And so there’s this inside and outside congruence that I think is why. This as a ritual is so powerful or as a creative act, what you just 

Amy Dawson: explained about ritual. I early on started a ritual right when, immediately after Emily passed away, and she died on a Thursday night.

Every Thursday night I go, I. Someplace alone in the backyard and I play her her favorite songs and it’s, I don’t miss a Thursday night. It doesn’t matter where I am. It might not be, I usually try to do it at the right hour, but it may be two hours later. And I know she understands and I go out back, I play her, her music and it’s my ritual with her and it’s, I look forward to it all week that every Thursday night it’s our time together.

And I feel that ritual really has helped me the last two and a half years. Of missing her. And I think rituals really make a big difference when you’re grieving. 

Diane Hullet: I think they make a really big difference. And I think as well as losing touch of death, you know, and putting that outside the home, we’ve kind of, you know, in a secular society we say, well, that’s just, you know, some odd nonsense, but there’s, there’s reasons that humans have done rituals with their dead and with their dying over millennia.

And so why we suddenly think we should throw all that out the window? I don’t know, because I think our ancestors knew. The concept 

Amy Dawson: of sending messages on the wind isn’t new. It goes back to Greek mythology. God sent like the various gods sent messages on the wind to get there in the, in the flash of the wind, and it’s quoted in Greek mythology.

So it’s not, it’s really not anything new. It’s something that has been around forever. The concept, the idea 

Diane Hullet: of. I love it. Well, I think this is so interesting, Amy. Tell us again, you know, if listeners are listening and there’s people all over the country and all over the world who listen to this podcast, where can they find your website, which will help them find wind phones near them?

Amy Dawson: Sure. It’s Www.mywindphone.com on Instagram. It’s at Mywindphone.com and I also have a really lovely community of people on Facebook. And the group is my. Wind Foam. It’s a Facebook. Beautiful. So there’s three different ways that you can reach out. If for any reason that you can’t seem to locate one, you can email me from the website, you know, there’s a contact and I, you just would love to hear from anybody.

It really, truly is become my mission and my passion and it’s what I do in memory of my daughter. And I always say that Emily and I do it together. She’s in having answering the phone. This is the way I visualize her. She’s in heaven answering the phone. When the wind phone up there rings, she’s like, Hey Joe, your mom’s on the phone and it’s who Emily is and who she I’m sure is up there.

Big personality. And she knew everybody. And so I feel I’m doing the work here and she’s doing the work there and we do it together. And so until I, until the day I die, I am gonna do it with her. 

Diane Hullet: Well, thanks so much, Amy. You’ve been listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. You can find out more about Amy’s work at MyWindPhone.com.

You can find out about the work I do at BestLifeBestDeath.com. Thanks so much, Amy, and thanks for listening. Thank you for having me.