Talking with Jennifer and Karen brings BLBD back to basics, in the best sort of way. They share several “If Nothing Else” ideas. That is, “If I am not ready for big action steps, what little things can I do today to get myself better prepared for my inevitable end?” Death Doulas and Educators with The Heartwood Collective, these two women run courses for individuals, families and corporations called Peace of Mind Planning. If Nothing Else, listen to this episode and leave with some concrete ideas for your to-do list.

https://www.theheartwoodcollective.com

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Diane Hallett, and you’re listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. Today I am here with two women from the West Coast, and I’m delighted to have you both here. Welcome to Karen Callahan and Jen Taine. Welcome. Thank you Diane. You are both doulas and certified senior advisors and you founded something called the Heartwood Collective and we kind of connected over social media like people do these days.

And um, I think we’re gonna have a great conversation here because one of my goals, this. Fall here in fall of 2025 is to kind of get back to some basics. So Jen and Karen are gonna talk to us about some basics that can really help I think any of us get more organized for the end of life. So tell us a little about the Hartwood Collective, how you two met, and uh, whatever you want to say to introduce yourselves.

Jennifer Tadjedin: Okay, great. Thanks so much Diane. As she said, I’m Jen [00:01:00] Taine and uh, we’re located in Portland, Oregon. I was several years back now, I was looking to make a career change and um, was at the time very involved volunteer wise in hospice. And just felt so drawn to the end of life and realized that whatever that next career change was for me, it had to be in a space where I was really able to help people have a better end of life.

And, uh, so fast forward a little bit into the idea of becoming a death doula. I got my certification. And created the Hartwood Collective. Met Karen and we just totally hit it off, realized that we were both extremely passionate about the idea of educating people. The things that they can do to prepare and plan for a better end of life, as well as just giving people a space to be more [00:02:00] comfortable thinking about and talking about death and mortality.

And we’re excited to really be a part of what we hope is a cultural transformation that is helping to bring death into the fold of life. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. 

Jennifer Tadjedin: Beautiful, beautiful. 

Diane Hullet: We are soul sisters here on the podcast. Karen, how about you? 

Karen Callahan: Yeah. Um, I was also in the middle of a career change. You know, I had started my career actually in public radio, but I had worked in tech for the last 15 years on the people side.

But it was during that time I lost both of my parents in less than two years. And, you know, I’d always been like intellectually interested in end of life issues. But that experience with both of them just brought all this to the forefront, right? Like, why are we not. Better at this, you know, how can we be talking about this more?

How can we be supporting each other more? You know, I, I was 40 by the time both of them had died and not a lot of my peers had lost their parents. And it was just like, it was really lonely and I felt like, you know, there were so many things [00:03:00] from like the tedious closing up my mom’s date. And also just like having people understand what it was that I needed, just was like, this is something that feels like.

You know, I could be helpful in helping people going through this. So, you know, when I met Jen and we started talking about education, we were talking about like, let’s create something for people in our peer group. People who are not in crisis or like imminently facing death, but just know that there’s things that they need to be thinking about.

Um, you know, even just like the, I know I need to get my affairs in order and I’m not totally sure what that means. So that’s why we came up with a peace of mind planning workshop and. In the four part series that we do, we just see it as like a way to lead folks through really practical tasks, you know, outside of the will, outside of your financial planning, but ways that you can, you know, get the tools and the language and the frameworks.

Like all these things that will just make it easier, like you’ll get these things done, but it will also make it just easier for you to talk about aging and mortality and death, which then, you know, helps you [00:04:00] also be able to, to help others who are going through it. 

Diane Hullet: I love this. There’s, you know, there’s something so much to me that this whole thing is such a multifaceted gem, right?

I mean, I think it’s interesting that when I strike up conversations with people, which you can imagine I do on airplanes or at a restaurant or whatever, people often jump simply to the. Well, we signed a will or, oh, my parents have this thing, or, well, do I wanna be cremated or buried? Like, they jump to these very practical issues.

Whereas to me, this, this nugget, this gem of, of end of life planning is so more multifaceted than the simple things that people jump to. And somehow we get very like one dimensional about it, when actually it’s this rich, rich place. That when we dive into and look at in its true richness, there’s a lot that teaches us about what we wanna be doing right now.

Right. About what matters most to us. So, so there’s so much, there’s so much to learn. I love that you’re both doing this [00:05:00] and obviously we’re educators who wanna work upstream with helping people, whether that’s people, as you said, younger, twenties, thirties, forties. Or fifties and even as you’re starting to age more, but still are kind of holding this as, oh, I’ll get to that eventually.

I think what we wanna do with this conversation today is kind of say, well, what if eventually was right now? Like, what is planning 1 0 1? What should I do right now? So I just, I appreciate all you’re bringing to this. So, you know, tell us a little about the. Peace of mind planning workshop. I mean, you just did, you just said it was four modules and then we’re gonna get today into some kind of really tangible, small, specific, what did you call them, Jen?

You had a great phrase. 

Jennifer Tadjedin: Oh gosh. What did I call ’em? The, the 

Karen Callahan: if nothing 

Jennifer Tadjedin: else. Oh, if nothing else, yeah. Yes. The If nothing else. Sorry if 

Diane Hullet: nothing else. No, no. It’s okay. If nothing. Do these things, right? Yeah. Correct. 

Jennifer Tadjedin: Yes. So you did, you just took some of the words right out of our mouth. It, you know, this [00:06:00] is the, the Peace of Mind workshop.

So much of the richness that comes from these workshops, and we specifically keep them small because of the story sharing and the real life experiences that people have had. That may or may not be the reason why they’ve come to us, but there’s so much in benefit that you can get out of. Talking about these practical things, but then it makes you take a step back and think like, wow, okay, how can I live my life in a way that I am going to feel at the end?

I am really happy with how, how I lived my life and the decisions I made, and these practical tasks sort of get you in a mindset of, of putting that more at the forefront of your daily life. So as Karen mentioned, uh, the Peace of mind planning workshop really does focus on end of life preparation. That is not something you will put [00:07:00] in a will or an estate plan.

Or speak to your financial advisor about. Um, so many people when you have the conversation about this kind of thing, they think, well, I have, I have a will. I’m good. Like, all my affairs are in order, and they don’t think about all of the additional things that are so important, as you mentioned. So the four main topics that we talk about.

And we go in, in depth obviously each week when we’re discussing these with our participants. But, um, the four things are the life file, uh, the idea of what you want in a celebration after you’ve died or maybe even before. Um, and then body disposition, what you want to happen with your remains, and then the advanced directive.

Karen Callahan: Yeah. So as, as you said, like we have these, we’ll kind of go through each of these as far as like. If this is what we do in the workshop to help people complete them, but really just like. If nothing else, do this thing, because we know this stuff is [00:08:00] super overwhelming and some of it is super tedious and you’re really busy and it’s the easiest thing, as you said to put off because you know, it’s always, what’s the phrase?

It’s always too soon until it’s too late or, you know, so like thinking about what’s, if you know, if you could give your, your. A gift to your loved ones. Like what’s one thing that would make it easy? And for you, it’s just like a little bit of a head start. It’s a little toe in the water in each of these topics.

Um, Jen, do you wanna start in with the life file? Yes. 

Jennifer Tadjedin: Um, okay. So for those of you who might not know what a life file is, um, it is essentially an organized container of. All of the critical and administrative information on your life. So the place where somebody would go when and if they are tasked with closing out your life upon your passing.

This is definitely a big undertaking and it’s scary for a lot of people. So today we want to [00:09:00] just kind of give you, again, to not overuse the term if nothing else. Um, one little thing you can do is just write down the passwords to. All of your electronic devices so that people can get into your phone, your tablet, your computer, and even if you’ve done none of the other stuff and you know, written down any of the other critical information, they have a place to start.

They can at least start searching. And then item number two is the celebration. So again, of course your death is an extremely momentous occasion and an and a momentous mile milestone in your life. So why not have this special event celebrating you and the life that you lived? Be as representative of you and the person you were as it possibly can be.

So we like to tell people if, if nothing else, a lot of people don’t like to think about this, of course, but if nothing else, if you can tell a [00:10:00] loved one, what is one thing that you absolutely want to be represented at this celebration for you, or possibly it’s one thing that you don’t want represented. I mean, maybe you feel like.

I don’t want this to be morbid and please nobody wear black. That is an important piece of information for people to know. 

Diane Hullet: I love that. Or you might be like me and you’re like, I kinda love the idea of everyone in black and maybe black umbrellas too. I’m like, yes, I require everyone in black. 

Karen Callahan: Yes. Tears.

Lots of tears. 

Diane Hullet: Lots of tears. It’s so interesting to me. This is like an aside about celebrations, but I find it really interesting that a lot of people say. They either say, I don’t care. I’ll be gone. Do whatever you want. Like, like as though that’s helpful. Or they say, oh, don’t do anything. I’ll be gone. It doesn’t matter.

It’s not important. And I’ve come in part through this work to really see a [00:11:00] celebration or a funeral or a memorial, whatever feels right to you to call it, is being really actually very important for the living and for the dying and for the dead. And there’s something about that recognition of that, uh.

Transformation at the end of life that our, you know, general dominant culture kind of just glosses over and people, go ahead. Don’t worry about it. I, I push people a little bit on this because I think it does really matter, and I’m reminded when you, when you say, you know, tell people one thing I, I think of one time, you know, being on vacation with a friend and they were like.

Oh, I don’t want anything in the fridge. You just clean it all out when we’re done. Well, okay, that wasn’t that helpful for me. ’cause six of us had been on vacation and now I’m stuck cleaning out the fridge. And you think you’re being helpful ’cause you don’t care. But that’s a little bit like when you say, oh, I don’t know, I, I’ll be dead.

I don’t care. Do whatever you want. Not that helpful. Like actually I’d prefer to have a folder with a handful of poems and songs and a place you love. [00:12:00] Like, tell me that. And I could run with it, but if I got nothing, it’s just, it’s not that helpful. So I love that you framed this in part is like, how can we be helpful with what we leave behind?

Jennifer Tadjedin: Well, that’s just it. That is so much part of the messaging that we are. Constantly trying to impart on people is that all of these things are gifts that you are giving to the people you love and the people who will have lost you and they’re going to be grieving. And if you can give them a playbook for any little thing to help them out, it gives them more time to spend time just being in their Greek.

And that is so important, and maybe they’ve even helped take care of you at the end of the life, at the end of your life, depending on, you know, how long, if you’ve been sick, whatever the circumstances might be. And so just giving them these little tidbits are really, really helpful and they really are truly a gift.

Diane Hullet: And I think too, it’s like it’s [00:13:00] again, on this one subject, it’s such a range, right? Like there’s, there’s plan, absolutely nothing and hope it all works out. And there’s like, plan it down to the minute of what happens in the entire service and you want to control the whole thing. And I, I tell people there’s a lot in between, like, do what works for you and your people.

Mm-hmm. 

Karen Callahan: But the ritual is important, right? The ritual, the marking, the milestone. That’s really important for the people that you leave behind. And you know, and this is similar to, to body disposition, which is the third thing, right? It’s just. A decision that they’re going to have to make. You know, that’s the first thing when, when you know, the person passes away, what are we going, what are we gonna do with the body?

And to have to, to not have to make that decision because it’s been made, is a gift. You know, even if you’re like, I don’t care what happens to my body, you know, that’s not helpful ’cause something has to happen, you know? And it is significant and it requires some planning. And so that’s why like our, if nothing else around body disposition is just document what [00:14:00] you want.

Document something because it is, it’s, it will just be a relief when it’s like, this is what they wanted. So I don’t need to think anything more about this. And it might be something, honestly, there’s so many things now that you can do with your remains and that’s, I’m sure, I feel like topics you’ve covered on the show.

But you know, you might wanna do something that’s different than your family members have ever done before, or that you know, more represents your values than than other people. So it’s, you know, picking something that’s. What you feel like best represents you and, and writing that down so they have it, we think is like the, the next, if nothing else.

Diane Hullet: Right. I love these. I love this idea that there are little, I, I love the phrase, if nothing else, there’s just something about it that, um, makes it a little bit to me humorous and a little bit like, well, what are you waiting for? Like, come on already. You can’t do this one little thing. And what a difference it makes.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Karen Callahan: Um, and the last one is the advanced [00:15:00] directive, and we kind of saved this. For the end because it is a heavier thing, right? So the advanced directive is this really critical document that covers who you want making decisions for around your care if you can’t make those decisions yourself, your medical care, and then what treatment you may or may not want at the end of life.

And obviously there’s like so much nuance and different scenarios that can be happening. So like the advanced directive is often just like a guideline. So our, if nothing else in this situation actually is less about the document and more about the conversations that you have with your loved ones, right?

What does quality of life mean to you at the end? What’s important to you? You know? And those are the kind of principles that they can make in a time of crisis that there has to be a decision made. Um, and, you know. You know, in the grand scheme of things, do your advanced directive like that was, that’s the, that’s the main lesson.

But having your loved ones feel like they know what you would’ve [00:16:00] wanted if they have to make one of these hard decisions at the end is really critical. And this totally for me came from personal experience. My mom passed away, uh, my dad had passed away about two years before my mom got sick fairly unexpectedly.

She had, you know, we were kind of like, hit with this. Stage four cancer diagnosis. She was really overwhelmed. We were overwhelmed and as you know, you get into this just like train of treatment and care and new doctors and new medications and she was kind of really struggling with it. We obviously were just trying to get through.

She started her chemo treatment and after her second dose of chemo got infection and she was. You know, her compromised anyway and everything just started escalating over the course of four or five days. Right. So we have to admit her back into the hospital. Then two days later she goes into the ICU and just things aren’t improving and like we just found out about this five weeks before, you know?

So it was just so overwhelming and you, you know, at some point the [00:17:00] doctor pulls my sister and I into a room and to ask like, what is. What do you wanna do? You know, if we continue with this treatment, the next steps are really invasive. The possibility of her, of it, of it helping is are low. And if they do, she’ll have like really tough recovery and she still has stage four cancer.

Um, or we decide to stop treatment. And, you know, we didn’t have the advanced directive in front of us. We weren’t talking about, well. Carries the medical proxy, so she should make the decision. But we just knew because we had talked to my mom enough about like what she cared about at the end and what was important to her, and this was not what she would’ve wanted.

And so we felt confident making this decision. We’re gonna stop treatment. We knew what the outcome was. It’s not like we were ready for it. It’s a horrible situation to be in. But the silver lining of it was that like we had, we agreed and we agreed pretty easily and we didn’t, you know, you can imagine a situation where we don’t [00:18:00] agree and the impact of on our relationship and our life going forward, like all of these things.

I just felt so lucky that like we knew, and that I think is like why we make the stress around the advanced directive like. First and foremost about making your wishes known. You know, having that be something that your loved ones, regardless of who’s in the room. At the end, like they, they feel like they know what you would’ve wanted.

Diane Hullet: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I think families take that for granted. And so if there’s a way to have the conversation, whoever the person is with what a difference that can make. And I was struck too, when you were talking about, uh, there’s a man named Hospice, a man named Chaplain Hank Dunn. And Hank Don and I talked one time and he said, you know, people in that kind of a situation like your family was in.

Think that they’re making a life and death decision. And he said, I tell them they’re making a death and death decision. And so it is not that she’s going to live in the way that you or her expect her to. [00:19:00] It’s she’s going to die one way or she’s going to die another way. And I think that’s, it’s such a powerful, hard phrase to hear, but I think in a situation like that, it’s so relevant.

Karen Callahan: Yeah. And I, I feel like there’s like. People who wanna be resuscitated at at all costs, right? And like that’s a valid thing. And if people want that, then like that should be what, what they get. But I think oftentimes people just don’t. Think about it, they just haven’t really, or they’re maybe not presented too with what the, what the ramifications are, the out outcomes could be.

And so again, like so much of the reason that we wanna talk about this when people are younger is because you’re kind of thinking through this when you’re not in crisis. You know, you’re not in this like fight or flight mode or just like, I wanna live at all costs. You know, you have a second to be like, okay, what is it?

What do I really want the end to be like? And then it makes it easier to make those calls down the road. 

Jennifer Tadjedin: I was just gonna say that again. This is just such a, it’s [00:20:00] such a real life example of going back to the idea that. Having these conversations and making these decisions is a gift that you give to those.

Think about your relationship with your sister and the fact that you knew, and both of you were very comfortable making this really difficult decision because your mother had shared her wishes and how that would, like you said, how that would have. You know, possibly been a horrible moving forward part of your relationship with your sister once your mother was gone.

If you disagreed or if you didn’t know, and then one of you felt one way and one of you felt the other way. Like it just, it’s such a, it’s a gift. It’s just a, it is. And that’s why we keep 

Diane Hullet: going back 

Jennifer Tadjedin: to that. 

Diane Hullet: I think these situations, they’re so, they’re so complex. I shouldn’t simplify it like this, but I feel like opportunities like that can bring families together and they can tear families apart and, and that’s too simplistic.

’cause they can also do all kinds of mashup in between. I. [00:21:00] But bottom line, you and your sister and your mom had an opportunity to come closer together. And so that, that’s just really different than what might have happened. You know? It’s, it’s very, oh, it’s very, these, every situation is so unique and so complicated, right?

In the medical world right now, and I was thinking about Dr. Matthew Tyler, who’s got a great kind of Instagram presence and YouTube presence, and he’s a palliative doctor out of. Chicago and his work is called How to Train Your Doctor. And I love that ’cause it’s about how are you and your doctor in relationship?

And he put up a video recently where he talked about. Anticipatory guidance, and he said, in so many disease processes, there’s a moment where you could be having a conversation with the medical practitioner where they say, Hey, here’s where we are now and this is where this could go. So given that, what do you think it will look like?

If, because, uh, the example he gave was with dementia and he said, you know, [00:22:00] when someone has dementia, they come into the doctor’s office and they’re having trouble swallowing. If what the doctor says is, oh, you know, we can try X, Y, and Z and this might help, but that’s all they say. It does not help when six months later or a year later they’re in the hospital and being intubated is the new suggestion because suddenly it escalated.

So how do we give some anticipatory guidance? How do we ask our medical practitioners to give us anticipatory guidance toward what might be happening? But I think what happens when, like in your situation with the five week diagnosis. On the day of the diagnosis, nobody wants to say, well, let’s talk to the three of you about where this could head, you know, because it’s too much.

It’s too much information, so, mm-hmm. I don’t know what the balance is. Folks, listeners, people, Jen, Karen, you know, it’s like something like. Get all the information you can take in, have other ears in the room so that they can help you hold it and do the best you can with these complicated situations. And if [00:23:00] you’ve done your little, uh, Ines, I’m calling them, you’ve done your little Ines, then you will be at least prepared to have things fall apart.

Jennifer Tadjedin: Yeah. And I think the other, the other big sort of. Overarching, uh, mission that Karen and I are on in our little tiny corner of the world is like, if we can just person by person, get people more comfortable talking about death and mortality, these situations, they don’t get easier. Of course, especially if you’re dealing with the diagnosis of your mother, but there’s just when you, when you’re comfortable and it feels like a normal part of life.

That death is, as we all know, but we tend to, we live in a society where we just, I, I’m gonna turn away. I’m gonna wince at that. I’m gonna shun my ear at that. And we just want, like, even if you come to our workshop and you [00:24:00] don’t do any of these things, if you have sat and been in the space and had the conversations, maybe that means that you’re not gonna wince the next time somebody talks about death or mortality or whatever it might be.

And that to us is a huge win. 

Karen Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. We talk at the end. There’s this analogy that I heard from Michael heb who started death over dinner and he said, you know, talking about death and mortality is like spending the night in a forest, right? And like the first time you do it, it’s really scary and you are really reactive to every kind of like, sound in the trees and, and you’re not, you’re just, it’s very unfamiliar.

But the more that you go back. Spend more time there, you start to feel like, oh, okay, I’m familiar with that. Like I’m not gonna react to everything. It can be kind of beautiful to sit in this space and to think about this and like it’s just the, you know. It’s always going to be, if something scary happens, you’re just gonna be a [00:25:00] little bit more prepared.

You’re just gonna be a little bit less frightened because you’ve just kind of been in it a little bit more. And that’s what we’re trying to do is just get people to sit in the forest a little bit, you know, and not trivialize the fact that it is sad and scary and hard. Um, you know, and we do try to make the workshop the time together, you know, not light, but candid.

You know, a little bit just like human feeling, so we can just get people a little bit more comfortable with, with this topic that they probably haven’t talked to a lot of their loved ones about. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, I sometimes think that it’s sort of radical that I think about trying to impact the way we do death, one death at a time, and that helping one family.

Have an experience around death and dying. That’s a little better. That’s like a radical act, and that changes the way they tell their friends what happened. And it’s funny, I, I use this phrase, and this is partly from Sarah Kerr. Like we, she and I [00:26:00] talk about how the story we tell ourselves matters. So much, right?

So if the story we tell ourselves is death is terrible, death is the end, death is something to keep at bay. Um, you gotta fight, fight, fight. Like, if that’s your story, then that’s how you see everything. Everything is set up as a battle and a fight and a difficulty and a terror. Like you said, the forest.

Like if you set yourself up that the forest is a terrifying place to go into. The forest will be a terrifying place to go into. And what if you set it up as well? I’ll put my back up against a tree and see if I can see some stars and try to stay awake and, oh, I think I heard an owl. You know, instead of, Hmm.

Like you said, sort of identifying things and being comfortable with it. That’s just a really different story. Then staying with the story of, this is too scary to go towards. I’m gonna stay on the road. Mm-hmm. Did mix like four befores there? I think it did. Yeah, 

Jennifer Tadjedin: it’s, it’s good It works because they all sound, they all sounded good.

I was just gonna say something along the lines of that, because in addition to the [00:27:00] workshops, I do do one-on-one doula work as well, and it’s, it’s really interesting when I, if I tell somebody, oh, I have this new client, you know, X, Y, Z is going on. Most often people say, God, how do you do that? That’s so sad.

That’s so depressing. It’s so hard. And. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of things are very hard, but my reaction to it is if I can help this one person experience the end of their life in a more positive way, because I was involved, that just makes me feel. So good. I don’t have this, and again, it’s kind of like we talked about earlier, like if you’re in this work, you feel drawn to it.

Right. And how, how or why that happened. Maybe, you know, maybe you don’t, but we are so drawn to doing this work and there is just so, I, I have such a feeling of, of um, being, [00:28:00] almost being grateful that I’m able to be a part of these people’s last journey. Yeah. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. The two of you are also doing some interesting work that’s in the corporate world, so like contrast that with what you just said.

How is that piece going? 

Jennifer Tadjedin: So, you know, it’s funny, we kind of, as Karen mentioned, she was in tech before this and um, also in, in hr. And so just by having conversations with people about the, the workshops we were hosting for individuals, um, we ended up. Kind of falling into doing an initial one for a company that she used to work for, and it was so well received and the people on the other end, you know, I remember seeing in the chat at the end of the workshop.

Saying, oh my God, please do more of these sorts of things. This is so important, you know, even in the middle of a [00:29:00] workday, for people to take an hour out of their time and, you know, out of their busy work schedules to come and sit and be in a space where they’re talking about something very, very heavy.

But again. This is something that we’re all experiencing, whether it’s our aging parents or, you know, God forbid it’s a spouse or a child. Everybody is experiencing this, this in some form or fashion. And coming into a workplace where we are giving people, uh, sort of, it, it’s not, so, it’s not as in depth as the four part series, right?

Like we’re just doing these, what we’re calling planning 1 0 1. Um, very top level. These are the things that you should be thinking about, that you can be thinking about having conversations with your parents. We’re trying to, to normalize, I guess that’s the word I wanna use, trying to normalize that this is happening for everyone.

And there are a lot of people who are caregiving [00:30:00] in the workplace. They have busy jobs. They might be still raising young children, but then they have parents who are aging. And so now they’re in this caregiver role and it’s, it’s, they’re kind of like the unsung heroes. Like nobody talks about that in the workplace.

And so bringing this to. That space has really been unbelievable and we can’t believe the reaction that we’ve been getting 

Diane Hullet: more of. That would be so good, wouldn’t it? If that was just more normalized and so that when you went to work you felt like you weren’t, um, you know, compartmentalizing off something so big as you said, really at any point people are grieving whatever that loss is, and at any point someone’s dealing with death or caregiving.

Karen Callahan: No, the caregiving thing, I think especially. Is, is powerful in the corporate space because it is something that’s impacting people’s, you know, from the company’s perspective, it’s impacting their employees in real time. And it’s super invisible, right? It’s not like somebody’s pregnant and it’s [00:31:00] celebratory and they go on maternity leave.

People are often dealing with elder care after work, taking time out for doctor’s appointments. Like it’s really, it’s not something they wanna talk about. It’s, it’s impacting. Their ability to, you know, kind of do either side well and, um, I think that’s been really powerful too when we go into to the corporate space.

And we do spend some, you know, some carved out time in these workshops talking about. Talking to your parents because so many folks at this stage are like, yes, I need to plan for myself. And we feel really, it’s like it’s important for you to think about yourself first because you’re makes you a better, more compassionate person to talk to your parents.

But like that’s where the urgency is, right? Like I can see this coming down the pike and I need to figure out what are the things that they need to be thinking about with end of life planning with. Their caregiving needs with what’s gonna happen to their house, like all of these things. And so we, we’ve put some real kind of like tools together around [00:32:00] ways to approach these conversations.

Kind of the map of like the types of things to cover. And again, it’s like pretty, it’s pretty high level, but it’s just a start. It’s just something that like they can grab onto. And even if it’s just like, I went to this workshop at work today, mom, and we talked about advanced directives. Do you have one?

You know, it’s just like anything that can get the conversation going is something that we wanna help provide and give people. 

Diane Hullet: Ooh, let’s make that our, like, our, like number five, if nothing else is. To listeners is like, go have a conversation about this. And like the mo most challenging might be have a conversation with someone in your life where this is challenging or someone really close to you.

But even if that feels too hard, have a conversation with a trusted friend, because the more that you kind of step into this, the more you realize. It, it can be enlivening, it can, uh, you know, step into some places that feel hard, but ultimately it makes things easier if it’s out in the light. 

Jennifer Tadjedin: Very much so.

Well, [00:33:00] 

Diane Hullet: how can, how can folks find out more about the Harwood Collective? So our 

Jennifer Tadjedin: website is just that, the harwood collective.com. Um, we have all kinds of information on there about. Corporate individual workshops. We are just about to launch a new workshop geared at those people who are truly in the thick of it right now, caregiving, and, you know, might be in the, the, what we call the sandwich generation, but we are going to be focusing on, again, it’s a four part series, peer support group.

So bringing people together who are, who are in it. And dealing with this in the moment now, and then also giving some additional advice and suggestions for them while they’re, they’re going through this. 

Diane Hullet: Well, a whole other podcast would be talking about what it means to be a certified senior advisor.

Right. I mean, that’s super interesting. So aging. Doing this awkward dance of the end of life as best we can. Right. Well, Karen [00:34:00] and Jen, thank you so much for your time. Uh, as always, listeners, you can find out more about me at best life, best death.com, and you can find out more about these fine ladies in Portland at the Harwood Collective.

Thanks, Diane. Thank you. So thank you so much. It was so great to be here. Thanks so much for listening.