In this episode, I sit down for a conversation with the producers of a documentary film called A Butterfly Has Been Released. The website sums it up beautifully: “With unfiltered honesty, authenticity, and humor, Allyson invites her family, friends and hospice coworkers into her dying experience. As time runs short, her community gathers to celebrate her life with a ‘living funeral,’ which Allyson hosts, and afterwards her natural, green burial. Throughout, Allyson confronts her own mortality and continues to create meaning and legacy, as her death approaches and beyond.” This conversation shakes up what you think might be possible, and shares the courage and creativity of a woman who found out she had only weeks to live. What would you do if you knew time was that short?

For more information on Best Life Best Death please visit our website at ⁠⁠⁠www.bestlifebestdeath.com⁠⁠⁠ Follow us on our social channels to receive pertinent and helpful resources on death, grieving, and more at: Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠www.facebook.com/bestlifebestdeath⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠www.instagram.com/bestlifebestdeath⁠⁠

Transcript:

Diane Hullet: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Diane Hallett, and you’re listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast. And today I am on with two gentlemen who are filmmakers. I’m super, super happy to be joined today by Barry Kach. And Jason Zamer, and they’ve just made a beautiful small film called A Butterfly has been released, and they’re gonna tell us about the film, how they got into the project.

And if you’ve listened to my podcast for a while, you know that I really like talking about films because they have such a big impact on how we perceive things and take things in. So welcome to both of you and take it Away. Go ahead and introduce yourselves and tell us, you know, how did you come to make this film?

Barry Koch: Thank you so much for having us. Diane, this is, this is really wonderful to be here with you Barry and I always love a good opportunity to, to, to meet new people and discuss the film. And so how did we end up doing This is is quite a story. I, Barry and I began working, decided to start working together seven years ago.

We had no idea what we wanted to do. [00:01:00] We went to a conference, we went to a death conference in a city we weren’t sure we wanted to go to. We left and we had a good time. We said we should keep working on this, and we kept on working and thinking of how do we help improve sort of that, that 18, that 18 month window in and around death.

We saw a lot of services that were just. Hit a very, very narrow slice. So I help in this four day window. I help in this two day window. And how did, how did you create that continuum and create support for a person? Was sort of what brought us into, into the space During the pandemic, we we began producing virtual memorials because people could not go to, you couldn’t go to a funeral, you couldn’t get your family together or share that legacy.

And we ended up creating incredibly meaningful memorials to get started. Barry, actually, we did the first memorial for your mother. If you wanna tell a little bit about that. 

Jason Zamer: Yeah, my mother passed away in the throes of, she didn’t have COVID, but died during the big COVID outbreak in Florida. And our family is all over the country, so we produced a virtual memorial for her for about 200 people, and we gathered [00:02:00] photographs and for the family, friends, and even people who didn’t know her.

It was a really intimate experience that served the purpose of Memorial. We looked at each other and said, wow, this is something that we can do. I have a media background and let’s do this. So we did a number of virtual memorials during COVID for lots of families. We had hundreds of people on some of these across four continents, and they worked very, very well.

Barry Koch: It was really fantastic, Diane. We were able to get people due to Barry’s background, we were able, in tv, we were able to get people that had worked on the Oscars to do your Uncle Oscar and worked on the Emmys to do your Emmys. So it was really high quality video and people would really, you know, they would get together that.

You know, we are known and that would come across in the memorial and at the end we would allow people to have a chance to, you know, we did, we, we opened up, we opened up the meeting, right? We opened up the Zoom and everyone came on and everyone was able to, to sort of give their tribute or their kind words to the person.

Who, who had passed and then sort of add to their legacy. And then we would be able to capture that and give that back to the family afterwards. So rather than those great stories be [00:03:00] lost in a, in a, you know, a cloud, you know, in a grief brain that doesn’t have perfect memory, you’re able to sort of cherish that and then still share that and re-watch it.

And so we still hear from some of the families that we had worked with that they’re still watching it and people are still, you know, using that to connect with the legacy of the person who’s passed, which. It’s beautiful. 

Diane Hullet: What an incredible, like, something to watch on the anniversary of the death or something like that to rewatch these tributes that people gave, as you said, kind of like a receiving line instead of the receiving line at a funeral.

It was the, the digital receiving line or something. How would we say it? Yeah. Well, so you told me, I love this. You said that you call yourselves kind of educator or detainers. Say more about that. 

Jason Zamer: That’s our style of communication. So we’re not, obviously, we’re not clinically trained, right? We, but, i’ve been doing hospice work for 25 years as a volunteer and as a board member. I had an experience where my first son died under hospice care as a very young child, so I feel very passionate about this, have been around the space for a long [00:04:00] time. Jason’s done dementia care and senior housing and been around the space, and we think that we can help by bringing maybe a lighter touch.

To the conversations, help people relax a little bit more around conversations related to end of life related to mortality. And that’s what we do through our presentations, our writing, and now through two or three of the media projects that we’ve done, how do we help create a fire starter for conversations and then refer to people?

Who really can help with specific things. Refer people to estate planners who can help with wills and estates, refer people to death, doulas, if that’s something they would like to help, you know, with bedside and individual care and, and sort of to refer to hospices. We found, I think, our sweet spot in facilitating those conversations.

Diane Hullet: It’s beautiful. I think it’s so fascinating. I don’t know if you found this, but you know, when you talk to people about end of life, they so often go immediately to kind of paperwork [00:05:00] or body disposition and I just sort of think as I’ve been in this field, I just think, well, that’s kind of the least of it, really.

I mean those, yes, those are things you can, you know, maybe they’re the things that we feel we can control or have some agency over or something. Right. But there’s so much that goes on, as you said, Jason, that that sort of 18 months. If you have time, if it’s not a sudden death, there, there are so many ways that that could be faced in, in creative and powerful and profound ways, which is what happened with the subject of your film.

So tell us about A Butterfly has been released and, and how you got called in for that. 

Barry Koch: How we got started with the movie is actually very interesting. We had done a, an Instagram reality series the previous summer called The Grieving Bitch from Newlywed to Newly Dead. Which we believe is the world’s first Instagram death positive reality series.

Possibly. We don’t know if there’s been a second one yet, but it, it was great. We had, we had nine different passionate [00:06:00] death care workers and we did a live with our, with our protagonist, the grieving bitch, where she told her story of her husband who. I had a remission of his, another glioblastoma actually in New York at the same time as the city shut down for COVID.

So that was a lot. So she had, she had, she did not have, that was a tough death, right? We were able to go through that. It was meaningful. She’s no longer labeling herself a grieving bitch, which, which we think we’re happy about. We think 

Diane Hullet: move on from that. Move on from that if you’re ready. 

Barry Koch: And then. We, one of the experts called us and she said, and so she she called us.

She said, my best friend trained half of the hospice nurses in Atlanta. She just found out she has weeks to live and you gotta get over here right now. And Barry and I said, the thing we always say, yes. When, when should we show up? And we went over and we got to, and we got to meet her and we had a three hour conversation over coffee with [00:07:00] laughing and crying.

And talk, you know, and, and she explained what she wanted us to do. She said, I want you to come in and you’re gonna make a documentary about the end of my life and it’s gonna help other people. And Perry and I had only made memorial videos at that point. We said, okay, yeah, we can give you memorial video.

Maybe we can give you that second thing too. And we said, yes. We, that was on a Friday. We got, we got the call on Wednesday. We met her on Friday. We recruited the crew on Saturday. On Monday we did filming at her kitchen table. On Wednesday, we filmed the her 150 person living funeral, or I’m not dead yet, party as she was calling it.

And on Friday she went to the lake, to a friend’s lake house. She’d always been meaning to go. And, and on Monday she, so she went on a, a lake house. She, on the way back, she went straight into hospice. We saw her on Tuesday, which we think was the last day. She was speaking full sentences. She died a couple weeks later and she was, I mean, she was [00:08:00] coaching us.

She was coaching us to make this documentary all the way through, I mean, her death bed where she had worked just weeks before. So. 

Diane Hullet: Incredible, incredible. I somehow, in watching the film, I didn’t realize the timeframe was that tight. Like somehow the film sort of, as I watched it, I thought, well, this happened over maybe a few weeks and probably they got involved in a month later.

The party came. But no, it was like that fast. So one of the really moving things in it is her decision to make you know, all kinds of things you can call it, right? The, I’m not dead yet party or a living memorial or a, a tribute to life. You know, people call it all kinds of things, but essentially she invited.

Anyone and everyone that she knew to her house and had this huge event while she was still able to enjoy it and be a part of it. And that’s a definitely a big piece of the film. Barry, what would you add? 

Jason Zamer: Yeah, I mean, she. Died 39 days after diagnosis, and we only knew her 12 days when she was alive.

And now we’ve been living with this project for about a year, a little bit more, [00:09:00] and it feels so intimate. We developed a very, very quick bond with her and again, we knew her for 12 days and we worked especially hard. You know, she kept saying, and this is in the film. I’m not dead if I can still speak.

Right. And we are using Allison’s words and Allison’s desires as sort of the North star for this project. So I mean, we are just, and, and having good success and a very good response to it. ’cause I think the authenticity shows through Allison as an educator and as a person and as a nurse. Wanted to really help people.

So we we were like a pass through you. You’ll notice in the film, there’s, we don’t have opinions about what’s happening. There’s no judgment about what’s happening. Alison, and this is an important thing for us, is demonstrating her agency and demonstrating to people in her own way that we have choices.

You might make different choices, but I think it’s important and we think it’s important. For folks to know that, again, assuming it’s [00:10:00] not a, a sudden traumatic death, you do have choices about the kind of medical care you might choose and the choices about the way you choose to be remembered and memorialized.

And choices about how you are front facing or retreating a little bit more into your, into your path, into your disease. So you know, for us, the. The choice and control that Allison Exhibits, I think is educational or, or educational and the meaning it delivered to her and her family. We’ve experienced something where people have seen the film and they’ve said, wow, that living funeral, that Green Barrel was awesome.

I went and did that for my father or my brother, and we’re calling that the the butterfly has been released effect the the, the effect of seeing the film and then. Choosing to do something that was represented there, 

Diane Hullet: realizing what’s possible, right. I think there’s really something about that. I, you know, I think this is a perfect place to, to read this quote.

I was thinking about inserting, ’cause my colleague Gabby [00:11:00] Himenez the Hospice Heart just put up this on Facebook the other day and it’s so much about what you experienced Allison doing. So Gabby, who’s a hospice nurse out in California, wrote, there comes a moment when life shifts in an instant. It may happen in a doctor’s office over a phone call, or sitting across from someone who must share the hardest news they’ve ever had to share the decline they’re facing, whether from age or illness, is not going to improve.

In that moment, the world feels heavy, time feels fragile, and the question that rises to the surface is simple and impossible all at once. Where do we go from here? Over the last few years, many of us in the end of life field have been working collaboratively together to help open up and normalize the conversation around death and dying to make it less taboo, less hidden, and more a part of the love and honesty we share with one another.

Talking about it won’t make it happen sooner and silence won’t keep it away. Okay. What [00:12:00] talking does is prepare us. It softens the edges of those moments in the doctor’s office so that even in our shock, we know we’re not stepping into this alone. There are resources, there are guides, there are people, there are communities available to walk beside you.

In these times, they may not erase the sorrow or change the outcome, but they can help you carry it with more peace, more clarity, and more grace. This is where the path. Forward begins by remembering that you still have a voice and you still have a choice. Your autonomy, your values, your wishes remain yours to hold and to speak into the world.

And I want you to know that we are listening. And I love, I love that. And I think it echoes what Allison was trying to say. I have a voice, I have agency and I’m gonna do these last few weeks as directly and honestly as I can. And I think your film captures her voice, as you said. [00:13:00] 

Jason Zamer: Boy did she have a voice.

She was a very dominant personality and, and everybody in her sphere, in her ecosystem knew that. And it was, I think, the strength of her character. That helped people and her openness that helped people become comfortable. There’s a, there’s a part in there you may have seen where her her stepson Carl, who came from Sweden, is describing his first reaction to this living funeral.

And he goes, well, we all first heard about this, it seemed like. A lot, which is Swedish for you guys are insane and this thing is completely nuts. What are you doing? And Allison’s comfort level and, and force of personality brought her, her people along with her. 

Barry Koch: And I, I think that it does, it lines up really well with the quote that you just, you gave, right?

And so it’s the, the unknown is scary. If we don’t talk about death, it remains [00:14:00] the unknown. She said, I’m dying. I’m gonna invite everybody in so that my death is not unknown. And then your death is not unknown to you as well. Like it was, it was, so, I, I don’t think I would’ve had the bravery Diane to do that.

So just let you know. It 

Diane Hullet: took a lot of bravery and I think it’s so beautiful. You know, the, it, there’s, it’s no what’s the word? It’s like, it’s No, no, no. Joke is not what I mean, like, it’s no surprise that she’s a hospice nurse, right. And so she. Understood the power of conversation and direct contact with death and mortality.

And so I think that gave her the courage to do this. You know, she, she must have thought, well, I could either, you know, go silently into that great night, or I can. Have a party name what’s happening and bring everyone along. I think one of the moving places in the film is people’s reaction to it, where, you know, you sort of take one person aside into another room and you kind of have the sense that the party’s still going on in the other room, but you’re having a one-on-one person with the camera [00:15:00] moment.

And some of the people cry and some of them laugh and they all just, you know, kind of reflect like this is so Allison that she would do this. And, yeah, like the step, like the stepson who’s a little bit shocked, but also says, okay, this is what we’re doing steps in. And there’s a way that the community stepping in.

I think about Steven Jenkinson is an end of life educator who, who has a great quote. He says, A good death is a village making event. And I think about that with this. This was a village making event. People came together. Rather than divide and isolate. And so I, I, you know, listeners can kind of reflect on that, like what does that mean to have a death be a village making event?

And if it’s not that, what is it and how, how might we have death be that. 

Jason Zamer: Right. I mean, the, the opposite would be dying alone in a hospital bed. Right. And that’s and this was not that. And her green burial also, you know, her green burial was a [00:16:00] very participatory event. You know, the community, various people helped lower into the grave and shoveled dirt on the grave.

And you know, that was a little strange for a couple of people. But again, once it was happening, it felt very normal and very comfortable. 

Diane Hullet: Have either of you attended another green burial? 

Jason Zamer: Yeah. We both, I, we both have. And it’s funny, this this green burial is a place called Honey Creek Woodlands.

It’s associated with a monastery right outside of Atlanta and they have a little, a little huddle and a little pre-game conference with people if you’re going out to the grape site, particularly if there’s a shrouded body. Which many people haven’t seen. And it’s different seeing a body with a shroud than seeing a big brown box.

And they sort of, they help people say, you’re gonna go out to the grave site. The grave was hand dug. There’s gonna be a big, you know, pile of dirt. You might see the, the body is gonna be lowered into the grave on a buckboard. And they sort of emotionally prepare people for what they’re about to encounter.

Diane Hullet: Fascinating. And, and who does the hand digging of the graves at that place? There’s a, [00:17:00] 

Barry Koch: there’s a crew of people. There’s a three, there’s three or four guys. They dig very fast. Apparently we, 

Diane Hullet: that’s amazing. That’s pretty different than a backhoe, isn’t it? Yeah. But the power of that to be a grave digger. I just read a, a great book.

I was reading a book about a famous cemetery in Paris, which I won’t try to pronounce the name of ’cause I’ll get it wrong, but it’s called The Secret Life of a Cemetery. And, and he, it’s written by the director and he kind of says, you know, grave diggers get a bad rap because they’re really amazing people that they, they do this, that they step into this work and, and dig graves.

Yeah. It 

Jason Zamer: is funny you say that. Jason and I have talked to these cemetery people about going out there and us attempting to dig agra, dig a grave, just to see what it’s like. I, I’ve told Jason I’m good for probably about three or four shovel fulls and and it takes these guys hours. You know, these are, these are guys who do this and it takes hours to dig a, a hand dug grave.

Diane Hullet: Well, and to do that, knowing that you could get a backhoe and do it in about 20 minutes is kind of like [00:18:00] astounding, right? 

Jason Zamer: I mean, I was at a, this is an aside, but I mean, I was at a. Funeral, right when COVID was breaking for a young man who had taken his life. And this struck me as horrible that we had the service graveside, and while everyone was standing there, they started up the backhoe and started pushing dirt into the grave while we’re standing there.

And it was, it was horrific. I couldn’t I couldn’t believe it. 

Diane Hullet: It’s like the opposite of village making, right? It’s like bringing the machine, get the industry moving. We may, we got another one coming. Let’s go. Yeah. Well, what la la la what, in people’s response to the film, what do you see people taking away from it?

Barry Koch: A lot of times when people see the film, their, their first response is they didn’t know that those options existed. Right. So it, it really, what it’s doing is sort of expanding what you think the end of life could look like if it remains unknown and scary. It’s usually a pretty direct thing. Like in my mind, I’m here one day.

I’m in a hospital bed with a, with a buzzing light and some beeping things next to me, [00:19:00] and then the next, and then I’m, and then I die. That’s what I think it is, and it sounds horrible, and I’m gonna be scared of it my entire life, as opposed to even the concept of having a vigil. I mean, or having that community come around you and, you know, cherish that life and tell those stories around it and, and bring those people together.

You know, through the love of the person that is leaving. I mean, and that is such a different, that’s such a different experience than what my sort of simplistic, you know, prerecorded message that I already had in my head as to what death was. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah. Yeah. And I think so many people have traumatic experiences at deaths with hospitals.

Not always, but there can be kind of this residue that’s, like you said, that’s scary, that’s negative, that’s alarming and, and isolating in a way that is different than what most of us would want. 

Jason Zamer: A typical setting or format for where we’re sharing the film both virtually and in person, is we’ll do a little introduction.

We’ll show the film, which is 36 minutes long, and then we’ll have a [00:20:00] 45 minute to an hour discussion with the people there. And you see sort of the initial thing is reacting to what. You saw in the film, whatever, you take away the choice and control, the grace, the humor. But then inevitably it goes to people’s individual experiences that they’ve had.

You know, when my dad died, we were able to do this, or we weren’t able to do this, or, so it, it goes very, very quickly to the personal and I, and I think, Diane, you probably know this, you know, you meet people in some spheres of life and it can be formal and you’re shaking hands and it’s like, yes, Bob, I’ll call you on Thursday.

Great to meet you. When you talk about end of life stuff, no matter who you’re talking to, particularly if they’re of a certain age, we’ve all gone through it and it, the barriers break down. So this film really just breaks down that barrier of, and you know, sometimes people react quite emotionally.

Sometimes people go to a very spiritual place. Other times people do go to you know, the, the administrative place. [00:21:00] But but it usually comes back to the personal. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, what they’ve experienced, what they know, what they hope for, what they wish, what they’re in the middle of. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting.

When I first started watching the film, it was funny. There was a part where somebody was very, I don’t remember if it was Allison or somebody else, but somebody was very negative about a funeral. Like they were like, oh, I don’t want people crying and wearing black. And, and in my mind I was like. I don’t know.

I’ve always thought that was kind of cool, like maybe I watch too much Harold and Maude or something, because I kind of want the, like everyone in black, black umbrellas, like, that sounds right to me. You know, rain coming down and just like dark. But, so it was interesting. My own reaction was kind of like, well wait, you know, wait, I have a different opinion about what that might look like, but I, I really value what she did in terms of bringing community together and living until the moment she was no longer living.

Jason Zamer: Well, two, I have two thoughts to that. One is you just dated yourself with the Harold and Maude reference. Totally. The other thing is I mean if, but from a [00:22:00] non-judgmental point of view, if you want the black suit and Paul’s letter to the Corinthians and a giant mahogany box. Great. Have at it. You don’t want that.

There’s other things you can do, right? Yeah. So it’s like we try and be very, you know, nonjudgmental about that. 

Diane Hullet: Now there’s another film. What if there was a film that was sort of doing, you know, 12 different ways of doing funeral rights? Like that would be sort of interesting to see because so many faith traditions have different rights or so many subsets of society have different kind of rituals and ways of being with this.

So there you go. There’s another film idea. I’m sure you needed one. 

Jason Zamer: It’s actually in the works. It’s funny, it’s the second, it’s the second conversation today where that has come up and we actually have a, a project we’re working on in that realm. 

Diane Hullet: Oh, interesting. What, Ted, can you say anything more about it as a sneak peek?

Barry Koch: Yes, I’d love to talk a little bit about it. We’re really excited about a, a series that allows us to explore. Yeah. ’cause I, the, the ability for us to make such a profound relationship with Allison and all of her friends and [00:23:00] family in 12 days was incredible. And so this, while that ritual may be different from something that you would envision for yourself, then you were still able to connect with her as a person and like you could connect with her.

Right. And we believe that. There are other, there are other death rituals that people have that once you get into that, you’re, that intimacy is then brought in and you’re able to connect with them in a different way than if I presented their culture or their society view through a different lens. Right.

And so by seeing, by seeing a culture, what, how they, how they treat the a death is a good, is a, we think is a beautiful view in, and a more sort of intimate portal into, in, into that community is, is our hope for that. Very. 

Jason Zamer: Right. And at the same time. Affirming our common humanity, right? A ritual may look radically different, right?

And to, depending on how you look at it, it may look strange or inappropriate or whatever, but the commonality as humans is honoring our dead, right? However we choose to do that. And I don’t know, this feels like a time in. The world where [00:24:00] emphasizing common humanity is a good thing because certainly there’s a lot of things that are trying to divide us 

Diane Hullet: Yeah, yeah.

In all kinds of ways. So, and, and this is the big commonality, right? And I think, you know, we were saying at the beginning, and I don’t know if it was before we hit record or not, but this thing about films, like why, why do you think that films are different than a book? Why, you know, why is watching a 38 minute film.

How does that visually impact someone different than reading something or going to a website? 

Barry Koch: I gotta give Barry credit. He did a wonderful job on the music in the film. He really did, did most of the selection. He, he wrote an original song, he recruited the artist and I, you don’t have music when you’re reading a book.

You don’t really hear it on a website and that, and then you start engaging your other senses. It’s more passive in you. Yeah. And, and you’re able, and, and I think of people that helped us make this film, did a great job of getting shots right in the face. You feel very personal with each one of the friends and families that are in the, that are in the film and that, and that connection comes right through.[00:25:00] 

Jason Zamer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it wasn’t necessarily a upfront production, editorial decision, but there’s a homegrown ness to this film. Right. It’s it’s not super slick and it feels like people you could know. Going through something that you might experience and there’s an emotionality. Not that you can’t cry when you’re reading a book, ’cause you, you can, but like Jason is saying, the music, you’re in a dark room.

It’s you. Most people can’t read a book in 36 minutes and complete a whole story arc in a short period of time. And then again, the fact that we’re providing an outlet for release and discussion as a part of the whole thing. Reading a book is a solitary experience. Watching a movie is a, a village experience.

Diane Hullet: Yeah, there’s something about the immediacy of the storytelling through a film like this one that you really, you do. You feel like you have a glimpse of Allison by the end of it. Not that you know her whole life, but you kind of have this slice of how she lived and who she was and how her friends saw her, and how.

[00:26:00] This ending was such a fitting connection to how she lived her life. That there’s just, yeah, I think there’s just an immediacy to that. And you know, if listeners are listening and haven’t seen a film like this one, I really encourage you to try it. There’s, there’s other films, you know, the last ecstatic days, the last Flight home.

The movies from the When You Die Project, all of these are films that are kind of giving you a path in to have these conversations and these responses. And I, I don’t know. I’m one of those people, whenever I go to a movie like this, I, I immediately am like, why didn’t I tell everyone? I know. I, I need everyone I know to see this movie, you know?

And but I don’t often necessarily invite people along because I don’t know what they’ll think or I think, oh, I don’t, I don’t wanna bother them. But there’s an immediacy to it that I think many, many people would really resonate with. How, how can people see the, the film. 

Barry Koch: So we are, the film is, we are currently have the film in a series of film festivals, but we want everyone to be able to see it and still have that community experience.

So what we’ve been doing is doing [00:27:00] a one virtual screening per month where we then host a talk afterwards. So if anyone would like to see, you can come to our website at tg beyond.com, upcoming screenings right there. You put in your email address and we’ll send you a, we’ll send you a link and then we’d like to, we would love a chance to share the movie with your community and, you know.

Hear, hear about their thoughts afterwards. ’cause I, I really think that conversation and connection afterwards is, is the, is the best part of the movie. That’s, yeah. That’s funny for me to say. My favorite part of my own movie is after you finished watching it. 

Diane Hullet: That’s great. That’s great. That makes so much sense.

Well, I appreciate. So much both of you joining me today and talking about this important movie and beautiful movie and brief movie, and you know, I think it’s very fitting. I happen to have my teacup here that’s got a gorgeous butterfly on it, which I did not plan. But there’s a beautiful piece of the movie too, which are these graphics.

So I think her type of glioblastoma was called a butterfly. Is that right? 

Jason Zamer: Right. She had what’s called a butterfly glioblastoma, [00:28:00] or she says, it kinda looks like a big rock in my head. So I don’t know if you necessarily see the butterfly, but that became the motif for the film. So the, the segment, the chapter headings that you’re talking about is an, is an x-ray style butterfly that looks like her.

MRI. The, the title theme from the song is A Butterfly has been released, and and it turns out also that butterflies are largely associated with hospices. You know, preexisting. Right. That’s, that’s the thing. So it just, it just very organically, very serendipitously, very magically came together. I see Jason’s rolling his eyes because he might think something different.

Barry Koch: So there were a remark. It, it seemed, did a little bit coincidental. The number of butterflies everywhere. I’ll, I’ll give you that, Barry. But it’s just, you know, it’s the time of season where butterflies are out, you know? Mm-hmm. 

Diane Hullet: So you don’t think it was a sign constantly from Allison saying, yes, this film, yes.

This is great.

Barry Koch: No, Barry does. 

Diane Hullet: Well, there we go. There will, there will differ, right Barry? And I’ll be like, [00:29:00] yes. It was a sign every time a butterfly landed on my car window. Well, thanks, thanks so much for joining me and thanks for making this beautiful film. I think that this, this is one of those films that really has a lasting impact and I think that was Allison’s true wish.

And as you said in the film, she keeps saying, I’m not dead if. No, I’m not. If I’m still talking, I’m not dead yet. Right. So that was kind of the, the beauty of the film is that her voice continues. 

Barry Koch: Thank you so much for helping us spread her voice and this was, we had a great time. Thank you so much. 

Diane Hullet: Yeah.

Thank you both. You’ve been listening to the Best Life Best Death podcast, and I’m Diane Hullett. As always, you can find out more about the work I do at Best Life. Best death.com. Thanks for listening.